Without the knowledge of history you like cod on the waves – swim, where will the current flow

With this well-known journalist Natalia Feshchuk man talking in his second home Chernivtsi – Museum of History and Culture of Bukovina Jews, co-founder of which he is. The conversation took place before he got into the list of moral authority among the Ukrainians, compiled a few days ago one of the Ukrainian media . By the way, an interview with Iosifom Samuilovichem Ziselsom just ended his reflections on what moral authority are always there in the community, if only listen to them …

Joseph Zisels many posts and distinctions, among them – the head of the Association of Jewish organizations and communities of Ukraine, executive vice-president of the Congress of National Communities of Ukraine, member of the Supervisory Board of the Ukrainian Helsinki Human Rights Union. And in a nutshell: Ukrainian dissident Jewish descent, twice convicted for anti-Soviet activities. He never worked in government, says the most comfortable feeling when engaged in public affairs.

As in the Union, and now he has his own strong opinions on what principles should build a true nation and a strong country. And yet convinced that a free man – a responsible person.

Zissels has been living in Kiev. But here, in the heart of Chernivtsi, it remains a piece of his heart, because it is here, on the street Schiller once lived with his parents.

“I have a very warm attitude to the history and the people who are no longer”

– Mr. Joseph, when you decided to found the Museum of History and Culture of Bukovina Jews, it was a sense of duty to those Jews who had once been so much in Chernivtsi?

– My parents – not local Jews and Bessarabia. They arrived in Chernivtsi after the Second World War. In Chernivtsi I am, unfortunately, not born. But I have lived here and interacted with the people remaining from before the war. And it was German-speaking Jews, there were already a little while, in the 50-60s, – two or three hundred, maybe left from the huge community, which before the war amounted to almost 80 thousand people. In the city of 120 thousand people two-thirds – it was the Jewish population. And I was struck by the story of this community, which flourished at the end of the XVIII century, when the Austrian authorities to allow Jews to settle here. But almost half of the Jews was destroyed during the Holocaust, and the other half remained in the city, but has not been able to live under the Soviet regime. In 1940, the Jews were some illusions, many of them were left sentiment, but European, and they waited for the Red Army, because on the other hand – Hitler. And they were deported to Siberia, one third of them in 1941, 12 thousand Bukovinians – Jews. Those who have stayed here, came under Romanian occupation, who was shot, who died in concentration camps. Who stayed with the time left for Israel. Live in Chernivtsi remaining units …

And I wanted to recreate the story. I thought, this is our duty. Because once the Jewish community in the city was very strong. And those who came here after the war, there were already other people – Bessarabian East Ukrainian Jews were very Soviet. I want to say that everything was up to the First World War is well. And when it came, Romania, the Jewish community has undergone a lot of suffering. This, of course, does not compare with the Holocaust. But Romania was a strong anti-Semitism. Second, the Jews of Romania considers patriots Austria-Hungary and taking revenge for that. We have archival documents showing that the Bukovina Ukrainians and Poles in 1918 protested against the annexation of this region Romania. And among the Jews of Bukovina was a protest. And then the Romanians because it does not give citizenship to many Jews. But still it was not, as in the Soviet Union. 1940 showed who is who. And those who lamented that’s how bad it was when Romania saw what could be worse than under Soviet rule. Some of the Jews, unfortunately, did not have time to leave. We traveled already in 60-70 years, when there was again a possibility. I know these families, helping them. Some of them were escorted right up to Chop. I had a lot of files. In particular, the archive of the poet Paul Celan. Because his friends left me his letters, poems. And I have a very warm attitude to the stories, the people, who are no longer. But this museum recalls them. Some of them were escorted right up to Chop. I had a lot of files. In particular, the archive of the poet Paul Celan. Because his friends left me his letters, poems. And I have a very warm attitude to the stories, the people, who are no longer. But this museum recalls them. Some of them were escorted right up to Chop. I had a lot of files. In particular, the archive of the poet Paul Celan. Because his friends left me his letters, poems. And I have a very warm attitude to the stories, the people, who are no longer. But this museum recalls them.

– You always emphasized that you – Ukrainian Jew. Now in Ukraine, many of our citizens such as the re-born, they want to know more about their country and its history. Some, on the contrary, is still passive. But to be a true citizen of the country, it seems to be inside? As it has been in your family?

– In me many laid. Because in a city like Chernivtsi laid a lot – here is the crossroads of history, culture and languages. This tolerant spirit of Chernivtsi. What is the difference Bukovina Jews of Galician, for example? One of the features – tolerance of the province, it has passed and the Jews too. There was a lot of tolerance and among Jews, too: between the orthodox and reformist currents in Judaism. In other cities they are irreconcilable, here they are communicated. For example, the chief rabbi of Chernivtsi was the Reform rabbi and the head of the rabbinical court was Orthodox rabbi.

At home, I received a Soviet-Jewish upbringing, not a purely Jewish. But I never hid their Jewish identity. I’ve always known who I am. At the same time, it is Ukraine, and I felt a Ukrainian part too. When I was at university, he attended lectures in Ukrainian. My Ukrainian language more with the university, the house spoke Russian. Yiddish was too, but in my family it was less. Today, I understand that if the Ukrainian laid into you since childhood, and then it starts to work. We in the Union of Soviet Jews were in we had very little Jewish. We knew about anti-Semitism, the Holocaust and all. Few knew their language, history, literature. And only at the end of the 80s we started to restore the Jewish life, and began to become Ukrainian Jews who consider Ukraine as their motherland.

“Without faith and stories you like cod on the waves – swim, which carries”

– You were convicted of anti-Soviet propaganda. And what was the essence of your “propaganda”?

– I’ve been doing many things that could not do then. In Chernivtsi distributed samizdat. Helping political prisoners and their families. Gathering information on human rights violations and passed it. Joining the Ukrainian Helsinki group. There were people who helped – Ukrainian, Russian, not only Jews. It was a more or less intelligent circle. But in prison then, in 1978, was just me. Sentenced to three years. In the 84 th year – three more. At six.

– But the same could give and more …

– Could … But you do what you have to do. I considered it my duty to you need to do something against that power. As part of our small capacity.

– Who are the Ukrainian dissidents influenced you?

– How did I know about Ukrainian history, the Holodomor? Of Ukrainian dissidents. I talked with a lot of Vyacheslav Chornovil, Mihailom Gorinem. I traveled a lot for Ukraine, provedyvat those freed. I was looking for traces of what was called the investigation of psychiatric persecution, looking for people who have suffered in this way. I communicated with Ivan Svetlichny, Zinoviem Krasovskim, Panas Zalivahi – famous artist of Frankivsk. From each of them gets something pro-Ukrainian. The fact that I became a Ukrainian Jew, credit Ukrainian dissidents.

– You once said that you can not achieve human rights, if not to talk about religion and ethnicity …

– There is an opinion with which I am, so to speak, discuss. It is often said that it is possible to raise human universal values. And religion and ethnic culture is not required. I do not agree with this. Because when talking about millions of people, we can not achieve universal values, if not pass, so to speak, religion and ethnic culture. The only way to achieve this and tolerance. But the current reality is hard to implement. Because many non-religious people, they think that it is not very necessary. Although religion is gradually won over the place in our lives in comparison with the Union, but its weight in society still is not great.

I remember in the 70-80-ies of the last century, we spoke to Chornovil and Gorin that first need to be done, when finally this power will be overthrown or she falls. By the way, we did not expect it would be so fast. First of all, this is the resumption of the role of religion. Because religion – it is a very powerful educational factor in the society, which provides a set of essential values. It does not matter, Jews or Christians that. Because the value of the universal. And if it is not brought in millions of people, it is very hard to build a normal society.

Similarly, the story. Still have the illusion that you can live without it. But survive unless … but I know exactly what is in a person who has the confidence and the religious, and ethnic back to childhood, there is already such a rod, and then the whole life revolves around it. When a person enters the test in trouble, it has support within himself. Otherwise, you’re like cod on the waves: where to throw, you go there and swim. You have nothing to oppose to that external force or element. You can not change a lot in life, but you can not miss in your life and lie, going outside, and violence. To do this, you need this spiritual core – the ethnic and religious.

– Look at the dissident social events is not like other people?

– You know, dissent – it is such a feature of your character. See, we’re dreaming of a time when Ukraine is an independent and non-Communist. It came. But it turned out that this is not enough. We need to work to make a decent human life. And it needs a lot of work. Because those who had hoped that independence would give Ukraine at once, and all – were wrong. That was only the zero level. It was necessary to build many more. Unfortunately, we lost a lot of time. And every maidan that occurs, adjust the path to the future of Ukraine.

– But if the government does something wrong, then it turns out that people need to think about, because the power – it is a reflection of people … Or not?

– On the one hand – yes. But as the power – it is the same people, they have dominated their own, private, over the general. There are some studies that show that as long as society is dominated by values ​​of survival, until can not begin the path of modernization of society. All go in different directions, each competing with each to survive and provide for his family. There must be something in common between people. For example, now in volunteering involve up to 8 million people in Ukraine. This is 15 percent of the population of our country. These are new people who can be the future of Ukraine. A majority of just waiting and survives. Waiting for what will happen and what they will need to adapt to new circumstances. And the volunteers and soldiers sacrifice their lives. Because common cause always requires sacrifice – in the broadest sense of the word.

– And people want at least some of the victims of politicians …

– You know, if we wait for the victims of politicians, it will get nowhere. We should not pay attention to politicians and do their own thing. We have seen that the civil society can do their job better than politicians. I do not expect that the officials themselves to make reforms. Only civil society can do it and force officials to adapt to him. If officials do not want to adapt to new circumstances, to a new life, they have to leave.

“We need to be able to live decently, with dignity and without the transcendental material prosperity”

– How many years of independence, and we are only now beginning to open up in a new way, our language, culture …

– It’s done all the time. Decades. Just in Soviet times, a small part was discovering that, because it was forbidden. Since the beginning of the 90 it began to be freely distributed, but it should affect the children. It not casually says that Moses led the people of 40 years in the desert to die all who were enslaved. In the new land, he did not want to lead the slaves. Because those who have lived in slavery, always bear the mark of slavery. We still need to go through several generations, even 25 years must pass. Because who govern us? In the 90s it was the former communists, then the former Komsomol in the 2000s, is now the former pioneers. On October need to survive. And then all will be well.

– Somehow I happened to hear accusations of dissidents address that, say, in the early 90’s insufficient pressured the Communists …

– Do not push Davy – nothing will happen. We had very little. Now up to 8 million volunteers, is not enough to turn Ukraine into a European state? What to say: more than 20 years ago we were 2-3 thousand political prisoners. How was it possible to get the 50,000,000th country, all communists, to be different? This can only be slow – not otherwise.

– And for you to spread the language and culture, so to speak, coercive methods?

– No, you only need to encourage. You need to have flexible mechanisms to encourage ownership of the Ukrainian language, the study of culture and history. You should have an advantage in borrowing positions those who own Ukrainian language. How else? No country can afford to take the officials of people who do not speak the state language. Only we have this is possible, and even in other post-Soviet countries except. And we see that they are still backward. The world is moving forward, and we graze the rear. Because we can not get rid of the post-colonial mentality.

– Now a large percentage of people who felt themselves to be Ukrainians, but also a large part of the thinking in old categories. In your opinion, what makes people in the Soviet era to think as Europeans? On the contrary, right now think in terms of a country that no longer exists?

– It is not in the country. The point of the Eurasian identity. Because it is the identity matrix was formed hundreds of years, it works at all, all the people living on this continent. And it defines the behavior of these people for the future. Metamorphosis is very slow, very slow changes. You say people feel European. They want to be Europeans. This reflective level of consciousness. Consciously they want, but they can be them? Do they want to be responsible? Freedom without responsibility – it’s nothing. Responsible work, cooperation, respect for the law. What is the difference Eurasia from Europe? Because in Europe there is respect for the law, and in Eurasia it is not. In Eurasia, not the law operates, and the person: the president, the governor, or first secretary. And we are hooked, because we live in a 300 years old Eurasian empire.

Partly we are Europeans, because the influence of the West European identity on us. We want to be Europeans, but still can not, because people think: if someone makes reforms for us. However, it should be this: not one but yourself. Fight against corruption – not somewhere, but in themselves. When you start with yourself, then you have this sense of responsibility. If you do not remake himself a little, then the children will be dissolved. No need to have the illusion that the very desire to live in Europe enough. You must be able to live as Europeans live. Modest, worthy, respect the law and work. Modestly – it including without transcendental material wealth.

– In all periods of development of Ukraine there were groups of people who are called moral authorities. But it seems they do not always hear …

– People must have the need to listen, first and foremost. If people have no need to listen to them – this is a problem people. Recently passed into eternity Eugene Sverstyuk. For me – the moral authority. But how many people knew him? I listen to it? How many people have corrected the life according to the principles of which he spoke? We all know how to live. But the country does not work … So, something is wrong …

Sourse, 27/08/2015