Why Crimea was handed?

National Security and Defense Council of Ukraine (NSDC) unveiled its secret protocol of the meeting of February 28, 2014, which discussed the possibility of counter to Russia’s desire to annex Crimea.

The document was presented on Monday at the Verkhovna Rada Committee on National Security and Defense.

At a meeting of the National Security Council February 28, 2014 and. about. Defense Minister Igor Tenyukh said: “We can gather from around the country military forces numbering about 5000 troops, capable of carrying out their combat mission, we can throw in the Crimea, but it will not solve the problem of the Crimea We just put them there…”

“And what to do with thousands of kilometers of border, and preparing for the invasion of Russia will drop if this morning from the Chernigov region, then in the evening already in Kiev will be?” – said Tenyukh. He estimated that in the Crimea at the time was more than 20 thousand Russian military against one and a half – two thousand Ukrainian.

The then head of the Security Service of Ukraine Valentyn Nalyvaychenko reported that the leaders of the Crimea, Vladimir Konstantinov and Sergei Aksenov took the side of Russia that Russian law enforcers seized objects Peninsula infrastructure that these actions have received massive support of the population of Crimea.

Interior Minister Arsen Avakov said that the Ukrainian interior troops to counter the Russian military was not ready.

For the imposition of martial law gave only. about. President Alexander Turchinov.

Participants of the meeting unanimously agreed to a seven-point, include, first of all, bringing the army in full combat readiness, the allocation of funds for the protection of Ukraine, the creation of the operational headquarters in the Crimea, and recourse to the United States and Britain as guarantors of the Budapest Memorandum.

The meeting was attended by politicians, who were not members of the NSDC of Ukraine, in particular, the leader of the “Fatherland” Yulia Tymoshenko. Her performance, according to some analysts, had a decisive influence on the decision of Kiev not to use armed forces to save the Crimea as part of Ukraine.

The historical role of the NSDC meeting on 28 February 2014 and position of the participants analyze military experts Alexander Golts , Igor Romanenko (Kiev), politician Vyacheslav Igrunov , human rights activist, leader of the movement “For Human Rights” and a member of the Moscow Helsinki Group , Lev Ponomarev .

Moderator – Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior .

Vladimir Kara-Murza, Sr.: The main sensation of the last days of the publication of the secret protocol of the National Security and Defense Council of Ukraine, according to which in February 2014, during the occupation of the Crimea, Yulia Tymoshenko opposed the imposition of martial law. However, supporters of former prime minister claimed that Tymoshenko was not a member of the Council, therefore could not influence his decision.

On why the Crimea was handed over today, two years later, we will talk with our guests – the leader of the movement “For Human Rights” and a member of the Moscow Helsinki Group and Lvom Ponomarevym political scientist Vyacheslav Igrunov.

Lev Aleksandrovich, what are the rules of the game and, perhaps, human rights, when Russia was invaded Crimea have been violated?

Lev Ponomarev: It is clear that these are two very conflicting standards that exist in international law and in the world – the problem of the inviolability of borders and the problem of a nation to self-determination. Problems of boundary changes sometimes occur as a result of the long struggle of nations for their right to self-determination. But always there is a bloody way.

In this case, although it is often referred to, this conflict was not. There was the long struggle for self-determination of the Crimean people in Ukraine. Although there is, as in any country, there were different points of view, there were Russian nationalists and Ukrainian nationalists – but all this was quite a decent character. Therefore, to say that as a result of many years of effort Crimean population is self-determined and voted in favor of Russia, we can not. This conflict, with which I began, virtually absent.

All of this was an artificial one. Indeed, it was the Russian annexation of the Crimea, rude act of the Russian aggression. And most importantly, that the treaty was broken, which was signed and Russia, including – the so-called “Budapest Treaty”, where Russia was the guarantor. And this is shameful for the country – she was the guarantor of the inviolability of Ukrainian borders, and as a result she also violated those limits. Therefore, in terms of both international law and political science Russia was the aggressor.

Of course, we can after the fact to say that everything was bloodless, it could be worse, but on the other hand, we know that if it were not for the Crimea, there would be no Eastern Ukraine, which would not have killed thousands of civilians . Therefore, the annexation of the Crimea, taking into account the eastern Ukraine, was a bloody event. And one can only regret that the country in which I live, was the aggressor. Therefore, from the beginning of the annexation of the Crimea, I took an active part to stop it and to condemn.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: Vyacheslav whether Russia meets the definition of an aggressor in the events of February 2014?

Vyacheslav Igrunov: Of course, is not suitable. If we compare with those of other countries, such as NATO in Serbia and the Western coalition in Libya, then, of course, so the aggressor it is not.

To begin with, that the Crimean people over the years fought for self-determination and for joining Russia. The struggle for self-determination began in the framework of the Soviet Union, during the “perestroika”. At the beginning of ’91, even during the Soviet Union, it adopted the Constitution of the Republic of Crimea, the Crimean team a year later proclaimed their national independence. And it was still under the successor of the Soviet regime, it fits into the Ukrainian hierarchy – Bogrov. In the 94th year, they elected their president Meshkov, who spoke about the accession of Russia, and the Parliament, which is also guided by this and they even government consisting mainly of people invited from Moscow.

But the Constitution has been trampled on, Parliament was disbanded, Meshkov was removed. And all this was done illegally. Crimea is experiencing some depression, but always wanted to leave the Ukraine. There was also a very serious conflict with the Crimean Tatar Mejlis, when the Crimean Tatars, primarily Mustafa Dzhemilev, not recognized for the Russian right to self-determination, saying that in the Crimea there is only one people – Crimean Tatar, and self-determination of the Crimean Tatar people – the only legitimate. Live in conditions of constant humiliation from Kiev and constant contempt of the Crimean Tatars, of course, it was very difficult. Therefore, the most important reason – long years of struggle – was present.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: Let’s give the floor Aleksandru Goltsu, a military observer of the online publication “Daily Journal”.

Alexander, whether Russian military invasion threat existed in the Crimea two years ago? There are various rumors that there was a group of up to 40 thousand people in the event of unforeseen circumstances.

Alexander Golts: I think it was part of a plan “B” – in that case, if the Ukrainian side in the Crimea resisted. Those Russian units and formations that have been deployed on the border of February 26, 2014, were to prevent the nomination of Ukrainian reserves the peninsula. For me there is no doubt.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: Let’s give the floor Igoryu Romanenko, lieutenant general reserve, the former deputy chief of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of Ukraine.

Igor Aleksandrovich was in the Crimea Is the threat of military invasion of Russian troops in February 2014?

Igor Romanenko: There was a threat of invasion, not only in Crimea, but also in the territorial structure of Ukraine. Attempt to annex Crimea – not the first. It was planned in connection with the “orange” revolution in 2004. But in 2004 it was not carried out because the Russian participants of the Conference, as it turned out, were not quite ready. And in 2010, the situation was related to the fact that if the President of Ukraine, Tymoshenko would be elected, not Yanukovych, then also put in place the plan.

As for the 2014 – was deployed group, and this was a serious danger. And that is what has affected the fact that the annexation of the Crimea to Russia took place without bloodshed. Group, including aviation, was deployed along the eastern border. And at the National Security Council, who led the acting President Turchynov, this issue was discussed. There was a call, in my opinion, Naryshkin from Russia, and it was said that if the die is at least one Russian soldier, or there will be resistance, the troops will be entered into the territorial Ukraine. And one of the options – it was the times since the Sumy region, on the border of east – south, to Transnistria. Or worse for the Ukrainian version – this is the Left Bank Ukraine. At this Council, only Turchinov suggested and voted for the imposition of martial law, actually for the war against Russia. The remaining options held by which Russia held a fairly painless annexation. This contributed to the fact that the inertia of the easy approach and started from the east. Then there were attempts in the south, and there is a project of New Russia failed. And in the Donbass we already have thousands of victims.

Lev Ponomaryov: If we understand the conditions in which there is the post-Soviet space, you can find a lot of regions, where everyone is tense. For example, Northern Kazakhstan. Imagine that everything would be all in motion – injustice in Northern Kazakhstan, where a lot of the Russian population in Latvia – the post-Soviet space has turned to a bloody pulp. And these arguments that somewhere sought autonomy … That is what politics to the politicians have their own ideas. And they have autonomy within Ukraine. And thank God it was. Be achieved in the future.

I can not say that everything that makes Ukraine, – correctly. I do not think it’s right the non-recognition of the Russian language at least regional. But this could be achieved through peaceful Russian pressure, I’m sure. And maybe that’s peaceful pressure we had giant – the Russian language would be regional in the Crimea. I myself have been in the Crimea in the post-Soviet time, and I can say that there is no persecution of the Russian-speaking population was not there.

And what was the Tatars pressure – so it was not necessary to evict them. Yes, there is a difficult situation. Maybe it was Tatar nationalists, which again is quite justified, given the brutal eviction of the Tatar population, his death and artificial relocation to Ukrainian and Russian.

But it all – history. Does not necessarily resolve the conflict the bloody way. But Russia now it is done.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: Alexander, President Putin said that we will not join the Crimea, and then changed his mind – what is indicated? The fact that Russia has a spare script?

Alexander Golts: I am not going to analyze what guided Putin, in a few days by changing their views on the opposite.

More or less obvious that attempts to justify the annexation of the Crimean people’s will, I think, not baseless. In that case, if we divide the boundary in accordance with the will of the people, all of the former territory of the Soviet Union into a bloody mess.

Mr Putin at some point, apparently, thought that can go against the Crimea on the “Hong Kong scenario,” as we now say. This is when the area is under dual control. And then, when he saw that Ukraine is weak, I decided to just take a part of the territory of the neighboring state.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: Or maybe want to settle scores with Yulia Tymoshenko?

Vyacheslav Igrunov: Yuliya Timoshenko – a kind of “check mark in the fields.” Tymoshenko has absolutely nothing to do with. I think that the most important value are the geopolitical processes. I spoke of the will of the Crimean people, and I really believe that this is not the fortress, they are entitled to their own will. But I have no doubt that Russia acted not for the same reasons, of which I explain this situation. I think it was a question of geopolitical processes. A geopolitical processes affect not such figures as Tymoshenko and Poroshenko, they affect the relationship between Russia and the West, between the United States and Russia, the Ukraine and Russia, and so on. It’s too large amounts of power, to talk about some personalities.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: Igor Aleksandrovich, whether they want to deal with Yulia Tymoshenko, because it destroys the ruling coalition?

Igor Romanenko: She was one of many who are in the voting supported the peaceful option to the Russians were able to annex Crimea. It was only acting president Turchinov, knowing that, according to the function of President, he is responsible for border security, for the sovereignty of states voted for, to introduce martial law and oppose.

Indeed, there is a certain situation in the parliament with the coalition and so on. In these circumstances, the publication of what was happening at the National Security Council, in a certain way can affect the image of politicians, including Yulia Tymoshenko. Although the questions in the Crimea – is not a question of a separate policy, it is really a question of geopolitics. And in Russia, and Putin’s geopolitics, as the head of state, invested this attitude, including his neighbor, as a violation of the Budapest Treaty, with all the ensuing consequences for Russia and its leader, and for Ukraine and its leaders.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: Lev Aleksandrovich, you do not reduce it all to inner-party, inter-factional squabbles?

Lev Ponomaryov: I think we need to talk about how it affected the internal situation in Russia.

Vyacheslav Igrunov: Of course, for Ukraine it is very important, because Tymoshenko – the only political leaders, who gained significant weight over the past year. All other political forces have lost their weight.

Lev Ponomaryov: But she did not do anything. She served as the saying goes.

Vyacheslav Igrunov: She’s strong rhetoric.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: And what do you see a way out of the situation?

Lev Ponomaryov: Leaving Russia or Ukraine?

Vyacheslav Igrunov: Is it possible to one person alone to go? I think that is a long way of joint solutions.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: But it should be when to start somewhere.

Vyacheslav Igrunov: Of course, you should always start it, even today.

Lev Ponomarev: We have at least one day you have to show in the relationship with Ukraine sincerity and goodwill. A good will is that when someone is doing something, no one questioned that these actions are made, so to speak, towards your partner. And it is clear that the goodwill should be the strongest. And Russia in this sense is strong, it is simply a giant in comparison with Ukraine, even from the point of view of military force. But if at least once Russia showed its good will, and did not try to deceive … But our politicians lie, looking into his eyes. We have seen repeatedly as the President of Russia, to our shame, lying. So, if Russia once showed its good will, perhaps, once our relationship would work out.

I have been in Kiev, a few times, and I did not see the malevolent attitude towards people who speak in Russian. But I understand how you can hate Russian, because it kills children, peaceful people. And to blame Russia.

The most important thing – to pass the border. But it can be written to be assured that there will be an invasion of Ukrainian troops, military action on the part of the Ukrainians. I think that if Russia had signed an agreement “Minsk-3” and handed the boundaries, maybe even under an international mandate, all would be to move much faster.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: Maybe Russia really withdraws its troops from the region, and will focus on Syria? Some believe that a two-front war it is not capable.

Vyacheslav Igrunov: I just do not find there the troops. Indeed, for a while it was possible to believe that some parts were during “Ilovaisky pot” or in Debaltsevo. And to say that there now have troops absurd. They are not there. Show nothing. There the problem is quite different. But this problem can not be solved so simply because the blood shed by so much hatred, such fierce that to solve this problem a click of the finger is completely impossible. It’s a long process, such processes stretching over decades.

Look at Palestine, look at India, what is happening there. Cyprus is still can not ustakanilos, and how many years have passed. Thank God, at least in Northern Ireland, in a civilized country, something began little by little to improve.

And the blood spilled here Nemer, words of hate so much has been said that just to step aside – is to start a new bloodshed. 21 th of the meetings were held in Moscow. It called for the protesters? By the war in Donbas, in addition to clean Poroshenko, because “he moskalsky protege, Moscow sold it for the world, and we must win.” And sociology shows that hostility and polarization is increasing in Ukraine. More than 60 percent of the population are willing to solve the problem by military means. And just imagine what it means in this situation is to step aside.

Here we need serious negotiations. But as Russia and Ukraine can not themselves solve this problem, and Russia can not get rid of it, there should participate the international mediators. It seems to me, “the Minsk format” – this is really the best possible option, but not fast, it can not be solved in two days.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: Igor Aleksandrovich whether Ukraine now so polarized society that part of it in favor of the resumption of fighting against the occupiers, the aggressors, and some – for the implementation of the Minsk agreements?

Igor Romanenko: Due to the fact that the state and the people of Ukraine have learned a lot, in many moments they had to go through such a school and study, then solve the problem of sudden attack will not succeed for two years, as thousands of people were killed in the east, and the blood continues to flow .

I would refrain from such categorical statements that sound in the studio, on the absence of the armed forces – not the separatists, not fighters, namely the armed forces. One could see not only the Russian propaganda channels, and maybe the Ukrainian side, in order to understand how and what is happening there. That is, the death of Russian soldiers worked through such approaches. Firstly, we are daily reports, you can have different attitudes to them which characterize all daily activities. And secondly, on the death of Russian soldiers is private information. So look on the Internet. Two or three days ago we wrote about the reconnaissance and sabotage group, where it killed soldiers: Sergeant Nikitin and others showed their military cards, and so on. This is done on a regular basis, starting from the President of Ukraine, Supreme Commander. He traveled to Europe, showing the military cards. But this information is here. And if your human rights defenders is necessary, they also take and show. If Ukraine deaths each conducted properly, to pay tribute to the defender of the Fatherland, in Russia, of course, it is hidden, because there is a statement that in fact the Russian Armed Forces troops on Ukrainian territory no. According to our forecasts, according to our intelligence, recently it somewhere 8-9 thousand. But everyone’s business, how to evaluate it. as is the statement that actually the Russian Armed Forces troops on Ukrainian territory no. According to our forecasts, according to our intelligence, recently it somewhere 8-9 thousand. But everyone’s business, how to evaluate it. as is the statement that actually the Russian Armed Forces troops on Ukrainian territory no. According to our forecasts, according to our intelligence, recently it somewhere 8-9 thousand. But everyone’s business, how to evaluate it.

As for the signing of documents between Ukraine and Russia, we are already taught, starting with the Budapest Treaty and other documents. I agree with the guests in the Moscow studio that any one item, such as an agreement “Minsk-2” as of January 1 is not brought to a conclusion. A paragraph of the Armistice, when it is needed-Russian separatist party, for example, for the holidays, – in principle, and Ukraine, it is not necessary, we want to move toward peace. But the study is that once belonged to the Russian documents to implement them – with the Russians are now ready to sign any document that would allow to defend the life of even one soldier would be as it may be difficult. The people it supports. But the approach to these documents is this: we know that all of this could tomorrow be trampled.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: Lev Aleksandrovich how convincing statements that Ukraine fight Russian “vacationers” who had gone on vacation from the army?

Lev Ponomaryov: hundreds of contractors to contact me, who did not want to go to Ukraine.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: And they were made?

Lev Ponomarev: We are really opposed to that they actually drove there by force. We really helped these guys. And interestingly, the leadership of the army was going to meet us immediately, because they feared that any disturbance in the army will spill out. Indeed, we have contributed to the fact that the contractors did not go there when they are forced to do not want to go. But voluntarily went the other contractors. There’s a simple story. They simply change into other clothes and sent to fight. Now we have not accessed, so I can not say for sure. But I think that they are there.

But it’s not that. I emphasized that it is necessary to give the border under international … make some step forward, not a bargain for every letter in the Minsk Agreement and attempt to deceive anyone – and that is what is happening now. Because we are stronger, and we should show it. Even more so – we are guilty. A country that should feel guilty, of course, could today to meet.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: Vyacheslav Vladimirovich, what secretly buried the dead Russian military – in my opinion, it does not paint our side.

Vyacheslav Igrunov: A lot of things do not paint our side, and not only our, but also the other side. It seems to me, of course, from a moral point of view this is a very difficult conflict. It is expressed in a certain demoralization, including our people. And I do not really imagine how we will experience how we will get out of this state. Undoubtedly, our people died there, and it is impossible to deny. But the direct recognition of our intervention would play a fairly bad role for the international political image of the country, for negotiating positions. Well, of course, the war always act that way. And we will have to somehow deal with this.

Lev Ponomaryov: One of the costs – the tenure of power in Russia. In the United States, too, there were cases when they were unjust wars. But to change the government, came a new president – and quietly prints a document, how it was made. And in general, in a sense, the problem of settling. Of course, not immediately, but gradually. And we have a permanent leader, and he certainly never my mistake did not recognize.

And do not think that the country always wins when it is not recognized as an error. On the contrary, it can be freed from the burden of past mistakes and to win something more, by the way, including geopolitically.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: Did currently possible exchange of prisoners “all for all” and any similar steps voluntarily?

Igor Romanenko: In my opinion, there is already experience a year after the “Minsk-2”. Such a possibility is, – and to stop conducting military operations, and exchange of prisoners, on the challenge of heavy weapons and so on. But this is not solved, unfortunately, in full, there is no moving forward.

Ukraine has fundamentally taking under control of the borders and the withdrawal of all armed institutions, starting with the Russian troops, so to speak, of militants. We made some efforts, conducted through parliament legislation that promotes the election. But in those circumstances, that now have a place where we have experience in the Crimea, when brought Russian military allegedly unknown “little green men”, and then in these conditions held elections – these conditions can not be recognized as legitimate. Therefore, we should make some effort to come to grips with these issues.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: Lev Aleksandrovich, you said that the government is not ready to answer. But still we have to answer and Malaysian “Boeing”, and everything that was done.

Lev Ponomaryov: Yes, of course. When the team authorities committed a crime, but she condoned, the onus is on it, of course – and she will not admit it, will resist. And we are inertial processes, which itself discredit the authority, they will both be destroyed. In this case, the government itself discredited. And we know that it was from the royal power 100 years ago, and it ended with a terrible crime – the seizure of power by the Bolsheviks in Russia. And now the process is very similar. Authorities do not allow themselves to criticize itself does not criticize, does not change, is not updated.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, Sr.: The Ukrainian government over the years to score points, and the Kremlin – loses.

Vyacheslav Igrunov: I did not think that the Ukrainian government is gaining ground. I think it loses them. I think that now – especially. I think that none of the revolutionary power for a long time could not keep afloat and score points. I think that the Ukrainian government is doomed.

As to whether Moscow loses – everything is not so simple. Of course, Russia is hit the hardest foreign policy isolation that barely breaks, I would say to myself superheavy efforts. But you can not say that Russia definitely lose points. I think there is reformatting the international geopolitical continents and Russia is involved. And you can not compare with the Ukraine. Ukraine is on the periphery. Ukraine does not mean much in the world geopolitics, especially now that it is, roughly speaking, is under external management. A very complex processes in Russia. Russia plunged into a very tough times, but some of the steps that it does me, for example, seem to be very reasonable.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: A Savchenko processes Sentsova damaged Moscow’s image in the West?

Lev Ponomaryov: Of course, they harm the image. But Russia – the aggressor, and it’s another to behave can not. Therefore, it’s all on the background of the main event – the Russian aggressor. Of course, it would be unfair to judge the so-called Ukrainian hostages. But it is unfair and against Russian hostages. We know how we judge the political prisoners. Therefore, in this sense, it seems to me, is nothing to the image of Russia has not happened. Were “bog processes”, the processes of Ukrainian hostages are now going. Visible partisanship courts. And if they own nationals judged unfairly, especially since they have to judge Ukrainian citizens, which they stole accidentally or deliberately, but it is unfair and even cruel. In this sense, the visible sequence cannibalistic power which manifests itself in Russia more and more.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: Vyacheslav Vladimirovich, you have given many years co-operation with Ukraine. How do you feel about the pogrom Ukrainian library in Moscow and arrested its director?

Vyacheslav Igrunov: The point is not that I have devoted much time to work with Ukraine. By the way, I helped create and Ukrainian library in Russia, and the Russian library in Ukraine. I – a dissident. And how can dissident relate to the fact that such a rigid manner to limit, in fact, freedom of speech? There was literature, which I strongly disapprove. But act such rigid methods, it seems to me wrong.

Lev Ponomaryov: In this we agreed.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: We are now looking for participants in the dialogue, so all of our experts sent from Moscow – and Girzhova and Semenenko. Oleg Kudrin is now gone live in the Baltic States, because it is created unbearable conditions. It’s a peaceful people, they do not belong to the “ideological war”.

Vyacheslav Igrunov: It is very hard to live in a time of change. A revolution – as a worst-case scenario of change, particularly hard.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: Maybe we can find some way out of the situation. It seems to me that the second wind going through the Minsk talks. Europe recognized Lukashenko as an intermediary, he and cards. There are the prospects?

Vyacheslav Igrunov: I think that if there are no prospects of the Minsk process, is generally no prospects for Ukraine. In my opinion, today it is the only format in which there is real dialogue, and that is already currently support the United States. Let’s see what will happen after the American elections. But at least now we have some understanding of the United States, without which solve the problem of Ukrainian absolutely impossible.

As for Lukashenka, he bit, he learned, so he took a balanced position. And it is to rehabilitate him especially in the eyes of Europe, and the Europeans are ready to work with Minsk. Ya K Lukashenko treat with great respect, despite the fact that I do not share the authoritarian style of government, which he demonstrates. I know that this man is very talented and very capable. Unfortunately, he was not very prepared, when he became president. But now he is learning. And I think that it becomes a figure on a European scale, and its contribution can be very significant.

Lev Ponomaryov: Of course, I also hope the Minsk Agreement. But I would hope that Russia will pursue any honest initiative, not just to resist every time and try to deceive anyone. The position of Russia and the leaders of unrecognized republics – is a different position, I would like to believe it. Do the leaders of unrecognized republics the situation is dire. Rather, they should prepare for the fact that they leave these positions, to a certain loss of political influence and political collapse. And of course, they will resist as much as possible, to deceive. But Russia could behave more consistently.

But if Russia gave the border, I would have urged Ukrainians still hold direct talks with the leaders of these republics, believing that they are terrorists, but on condition that the border pass to Ukraine … That is, two breakthrough, I think, it could be. On the part of Russia – is the transfer of the borders, and from the Ukrainians – direct talks with the leaders of these republics, even if they do not respect them.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: And so productive “trade war”, “war” with the truckers?

Vyacheslav Igrunov: When I watch it sometimes really want to cry, but at my age it is difficult to cry. It is sad. Nothing good, except for the damage to the economy of Ukraine … Yes, Russia will suffer from these “wars”, but much more suffering Ukraine. Who would cost Ukraine seek to maximize opportunities for the normalization of relations. In order to pick up its economy – to protect cooperation, to protect trade. And it makes every step of all, to chop off their own possibilities.

Here Ukraine sought in Europe. And that Europe provided a market in Ukraine? No. Europe has helped? No. And today, no matter how hard it was, it is necessary to build normal trade relations with Russia.

Lev Ponomaryov: If Russia withdraws from the eastern Ukraine.

Vyacheslav Igrunov: No, in any case.

Lev Ponomaryov: But that’s impossible!

Vyacheslav Igrunov: Today in Ukraine there is only one way – the way of the normal trade cooperation.

I am back in the old times, when only started to develop the conflict between Georgia and Abkhazia, saying that it is necessary to run the Transcaucasian railway, it is necessary that these people are not even recognizing one another, some of them – wanting to live in a separate state, while others – not recognizing Abkhaz statehood, however, we would have to cooperate. As long as this artery lives, while circulatory strength of human contacts exist, there is hope for improvement. And when it was suspended, suppressed, the chances are lost.

Lev Ponomaryov: I do not support the lock, I’m against it, no doubt. I think that in Ukraine, the police had to stop it. These are signs of anarchy.

But the leaders of Ukraine have to maneuver in order to save the government to maintain your weight and everything else. We must understand that it is very difficult.

I spoke with the Ukrainians, they say that there is not so bad. There are signs of economic recovery in Ukraine.

Vyacheslav Igrunov: God grant that it was so.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: Ukraine has to use such methods as the site of “Eurovision”, which will act as the Crimean Tatar singer from the Ukraine with the song of protest against the deportation of 44-year.

Lev Ponomarev: It is their internal problem …

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: It would be internal, if Crimea was not Ukrainian.

Vyacheslav Igrunov: A Crimea can never just be a Ukrainian. 200 years of being part of the Russian Federation, 200 years of direct and close contact with the Russian, the population of the Crimea Russian people, even if it was part of Ukraine – it is impossible to ignore the fact that Crimeans want a special relationship with the Russian Federation.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: When they were in the Russian Federation, they were deported.

Vyacheslav Igrunov: But they were deported and the Chechen, Ingush and … Yesterday we celebrated the anniversary of the deportation of the Germans. Little did anyone deported! .. Japanese Americans also deported. And what they do not live with them? They were from all over the west coast collected and sent to the central part.

Of course, we opened materials, such as the Second World War. Once we got back to the 44 th year, everyone knows how decisions were made about the targeted destruction of the civilian population of Germany and Japan. Anybody does not repent. Well, the relationship between the United States and Japan, the US and Germany, Britain and Germany great. Unfortunately, these are wounds that sometimes it is impossible, or people can not accept, because when recognized, and this recognition is not used for reconciliation, and to incite a new feud. This is a very difficult process.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: But there are criminal regimes, so the Americans bombed Dresden …

Vyacheslav Igrunov: The civilian population, women and children – it is not a criminal regime. And it was chosen as it is a terrorist tactic to break the spirit of the soldiers – to kill the wives and children of these soldiers. It was a strategy. They refused to bomb military targets, because it is of little effect. They began to slaughter civilians. It was a tactic during the Second World War. So what? Nothing. Now live. This is a very hard thing. When we talk about international conflicts, – it is such a dangerous road, here you have to be careful …

Lev Ponomaryov: … not to start these conflicts. And we have the anniversary of the beginning of the conflict by force. Here we are talking about it.

Vyacheslav Igrunov: Anniversary began much earlier. It started, or 21 November or 1 December 2013.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: You mean the Maidan.

Lev Ponomarev: We’re talking about the annexation of the Crimea.

Vyacheslav Igrunov: What happened to the Crimea, is a natural consequence of the revolution which took place in 2013-2014 in Kiev, unfortunately.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: A split a conflict around the promulgation of the protocol of Ukraine’s political elite?

Vyacheslav Igrunov: No, this is a common political struggle. Of course, everyone will use the dirtiest methods in it. Tymoshenko there is no use to anybody. Tymoshenko has its own interests, it has its own support. At the other clans – their own support. And I think that, unfortunately, this is not the last splash. But there is nothing in principle it will not give Ukraine. Elite and so split.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: the dissolution of parliament would not be?

Vyacheslav Igrunov: God grant that it was not. Because in place of this Parliament we will get …

Vladimir Kara-Murza, Sr.: The same?

Vyacheslav Igrunov: No! I recently watched the latest opinion polls. There fragmented parliament monstrous. There are about seven batches at the level of 10-15 percent of the vote. And how they will negotiate in Ukraine, where two and three Cossack hetman? .. That’s just crazy! At the same time Ukraine has international obligations under the “Minsk” and if you take a set of parties in parliament – the party is bellicose. And how will they decide? Now they can not pass a law on the election can not make changes to the Constitution. And in this case they will act? .. God willing, these remained. Imagine, for six months in the campaign to bring the country in a state of crisis, out of ordinary life, to bring it to a state of chaos – as can be .. May God grant that all ustakanilos now?!. And in general elections during the revolutions it is better not to spend.

Lev Ponomaryov: I am very sorry for the Ukrainians, Ukrainian parties. I sometimes talk to the Ukrainians, and soon, they show a certain optimism. What is the difference in the attitudes of Russians and Ukrainians? They believe in a better future and build it.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: Crimea – is what unites the whole Ukrainian nation – the problem of the Crimea, and his return.

Sourse, 24/02/2016