Ukraine defends, the DNR attacks?

What happens on the line “truce” in eastern Ukraine? Is it possible to achieve a cease-fire? fighting in the Donetsk airport Why are conducted? Whether the exchange of prisoners of war? How to live the civilian population on both sides of the front of the Russian-Ukrainian war?

Discuss visited Russian human rights activists in the conflict zone: in the Moscow studio of “Radio Liberty” – eyewitnesses: board member of the Human Rights Center “Memorial” Oleg Orlov, the program director of the Moscow Bureau of Human Rights Watch (HRW) Tatyana Lokshina and Ukrainian journalist Georgy Pacific.

Transmits Mikhail Sokolov.

Mikhail Sokolov: Today in our Moscow studio eyewitnesses of the events in the south-east of Ukraine, people who have seen with their own eyes the war and probably not taken place yet or are already world Tatyana Lokshina, program director of the Moscow bureau of “Human Rights Watch”, a human rights organization, Oleg Orlov, the Human Rights center “Memorial”, member of the board, and George Quiet, Ukrainian journalist working for German broadcaster ARD.

Literally from the tapes I have seen such reports before our meeting that the representatives of the so-called DNI, the Donetsk People’s Republic, hoping that the December 9 will be able to set the “day of silence” will not sound the shots. There are the same messages from the Ukrainian side that seemingly may occur such as an agreement on a truce. In general, the Minsk agreements exist for a long time. Oleg, you come out of there, now, every day of shooting?

Oleg Orlov: Every day. Every day shots of gunfire, closer, farther, “Grad” on Human Settlements. At both sides.

Mikhail Sokolov: It is a war going on?

Oleg Orlov: The war continues. And, in general, let’s see who is to blame for the fact that the war continues.

In my opinion, to blame those who in spite of the Minsk agreements stormed Donetsk airport. Clear who – it forces the so-called DNR. I, first of all, seems to be the root cause of the ongoing war – reluctance to comply with the Minsk agreement and to fix it, where they have been achieved, focus on these lines.

Mikhail Sokolov: George, you were a little earlier, a few months ago in the line of fire, where there were really such counter fights, talked with the military. Maybe, you know, what the meaning of a strategic airport, around which these are battles all the time?

George Quiet: You know, there from the Donetsk airport a little something left. I was not there, but from what I understand, the meaning of a more symbolic. Because, for example, in the Ukrainian public opinion, “cyborgs,” as they were called Ukrainian opponents, they are a definite symbol of some incredible invincibility. When seemingly riddled Airport, where there is nowhere to hide, and by some miracle, which would force him or attacked, he still remains under the control of Ukraine. Therefore, it is a symbolic place. Therefore, I think that Ukraine has held for a place even big enough price.

Mikhail Sokolov: That is a Stalingrad, not a step back, it turns out?

George Quiet: Like this. It is an honor for the soldiers to get there and for journalists, too. It’s an honor to get to be involved in some kind of airport legend.

Mikhail Sokolov: What is the price? Actually there are fights on the edge of the city, or even can be said that in the city. What happens in the Donetsk, civilians, and so on, is your impression?

Tatyana Lokshina: I would certainly agree with the fact that the airport – this place is symbolic, and none of the parties is not ready to withdraw from it. Because any party, when to back off, she thus recognizes its symbolic defeat in this battle against him. Therefore, there is a continuous shelling, and suffering as a result civilians. Suffering people who unfortunately live in their districts, much close to the airport.

We Oleg just a week ago when they worked together on the territories controlled by militias, separatists, militants, insurgents, as you say, so now and will call, we will, of course, were in the areas of the city, which are closest to the airport, three kilometers, two kilometers from the airport, but quite decided not to approach the airport. There’s a street that, consider completely destroyed, which has, of course, there is no electricity, no gas, no water, nothing at all, where the houses were completely uninhabited, which still remain some handful of people, some of them live in the basement of the fortified actually in bomb shelters, and they have nowhere to escape from there.

Mikhail Sokolov: And they did not offer to go out, to leave somewhere, move, and so on?

Tatyana Lokshina: To be honest, the people with whom we spoke, they did not offer. Of course, it is mostly young people, people who can not find a another option, and that they continue to live in these completely inhumane conditions.

I would once again like to emphasize the most vulnerable areas of the city of Donetsk – are pieces of the Kuibyshev region, as close to the airport, the pieces of the Kirov region, as close to the airport. Accordingly, to fly from the airport mines and “Grad”. Yet there Petrovsky district, part of which, most suburbs, became virtually uninhabited, he shelled by Ukrainian forces from the nearby villages and Marinka Krasnogorovka that under Ukrainian control. This village is actually bordered with Donetsk. People really are and there and there.

Of course, we are talking about the Ukrainian “Grad” and about the Ukrainian mortars. But I would like to point out why it is all happening at all. The fact that militants from the militias, they have a position directly in these areas, they have a position in the city itself.

Mikhail Sokolov: We see a small plot of “Reuters” agency just about these positions.

Mutual duel: some are trying to keep the airport, others their shelling from the territory of the city, not paying attention to what is there civilians there.

Oleg Orlov: Here mutual, in my view, a crime. First, the shelling from positions among the houses – it is definitely a crime. We have heard these very attacks, imagine where these batteries were located. But exactly the same crime in response to fire using rocket launchers systems. You’re kick volley system, you know perfectly well that the covering is not only the area where the shot, and all the adjacent space with residential buildings, with high-rise buildings, private houses, schools, kindergartens and so on. And then, and then crime.

Mikhail Sokolov: What do you think, George, have Ukrainian forces in such a situation to respond to the fire?

George Quiet: If you imagine yourself commander of an artillery platoon, you are there was shelling at night, you have two 19-20 year olds were killed in the morning again salvo. You understand that if you Shoot the, perhaps there will be peace offerings, even quite possible. Your choice? Then a difficult situation.

The problem is that Ukraine has, unfortunately, no high-precision weapons. If there was a high-precision weapons, as in Israel. And what we saw on the video, in which proximity is the “Castle” on a residential house, that is, even precision weapons do not damage the houses can not be.

Of course, the responsibility is mutual. But at the same time, the Ukrainian case, it is a defensive military operations, in the case of this militia attacking actions. If stopped attacking action would cease and defensive.

Mikhail Sokolov: Just often hear such a position: it is not necessary to understand who has started, it is necessary to end the war. Or it is necessary to understand who started, and to stop the war?

George Quiet: Of course, it is necessary to sort out who started it.

Mikhail Sokolov: And what human rights activists say about this?

Tatyana Lokshina: You see, our organization “Human Rights Watch” in a situation of armed conflict is exclusively tracking how parties to the conflict to respect their obligations or fail to respect their obligations under international humanitarian law, that is to say the laws of war.

We basically never trying to figure out who started it. Moreover, we even by virtue of its mandate, can not say it is necessary to end the war. Because if the parties are fighting, if they deemed it necessary to fight for themselves, they are at war, and we are interested in the extent to which they do for granted, it has everything you need to minimize harm to civilians. That is why we have this problem is the “Castle”, which said Oleg. After all, why “Grad”, why do we cling to him so? “Grad” completely without aiming covers a large area, flying, anywhere. When we worked in the Donetsk region, Lugansk region, we are really faced with situations where it is clear why the beat on this quarter: the post’s fighters, that’s some kind of base of insurgents, so the hostel, captured militants, they live in it. It is clear where the Ukrainian strength tag. But they repeatedly hammering “Castle” on the same quarter, as a result they do not hit their target, unsighted weapons, and people are dying, and the destruction of civilian targets there. Yes, perhaps at some times, with 10, 15, 20th, and they will fall, but here the goal, to put it mildly, does not justify the means.

Mikhail Sokolov: Oleg Petrovich, that “Memorial” said in this case?

Oleg Orlov: The commander of the battalion, perhaps, is facing such choices hit “Castle” of residential facilities to soothe their own fighters, but he and the battalion commander, to the above it should be a higher authority, more responsible and understanding, the consequences hit “Castle” is. And it leads to consequences, not only the death of the population – this is the most terrible thing, but it leads to bitterness population. Donetsk population as a result of such activities, more and more embittered and more and more ready to support those most separatists, who have brought the fire upon it.

Yes, the separatists brought upon them the fire that shot out of their quarters, but when people are dying because of the Ukrainian fire people all the anger directed at the Ukrainian side and the separatist support is increasing. So it is absolutely irresponsible to beat “Castle” on homes.

Lokshina: With regard to command responsibility and, in fact, exactly what orders, what orders are commanders of batteries, our CEO was in Kiev at the beginning of last week, and, naturally, it there were meetings with key ministries and agencies at a high level, of course, he raised the issue of “Grad” and using “Grad” in populated areas, it is of fundamental importance for us, of course, the use of cluster munitions, what we also talked a lot, wrote recently. These are the questions he received the answer: no, we will certainly give our troops the order not to use such weapons as a “Grad”, not to use cluster munitions in populated areas, it may not have to worry. And then the question: what exactly do you tell them, the form in which you give the order? Sounded in the middle: we tell them to comply with the Criminal Code of Ukraine and international humanitarian law. For our part in this situation we can only say – it is not enough clear instructions.

We very much hope that the military will receive clear instructions exactly what not to do, in any case can not be done in populated areas. Clear instructions still work, but some general reference to international humanitarian law and the Criminal Code in this case, can not work.

Oleg Orlov: The fact is that in favor of the Ukrainian armed forces want to say a few more. I visited during my trip not only the areas controlled by separatists, but the areas controlled by Ukrainian law-enforcement agencies. So, practically, in most, if not all towns that I have visited, I have seen that the position of the Ukrainian armed forces are located outside the settlements, no artillery, “Grad” and so on, except maybe Marinka, not confirmed we have details, but in all the others I have seen clearly that all these positions are placed outside of residential areas, and this is very good.

George Quiet: The fact that he was the Minsk Protocol and Minsk Memorandum, which confirmed some of the provisions. Since then, the Ukrainian forces have not changed their deployment, they are really where they are located. At the same time we know that there were a number of occupied settlements after the Minsk memorandum forces DNI, LC.

Mikhail Sokolov: 32nd checkpoint attack known.

George Quiet: Including. Ukrainian troops are in their positions, as they should, Minsk protocol, it’s still a regular army, albeit with a volunteer battalion, there is more subordination. Nevertheless, they are constantly being attacked, because, apparently, the party does not recognize this memorandum, they believe that they are entitled to all the territory of Donetsk and Lugansk regions.

Mikhail Sokolov: Sami representatives of the DNI, LC and so forth, they are with you were some kind of dialogue? You ask them: Why did you shoot from residential areas, why do you spend offensive operatsii7 some answers from them there?

Oleg Orlov: No, there are no clear answers, we did not receive. I can imagine what they will say and where we can arrange? And where is our territory? Do we leave the city and go away? And we shot with the airport, they shoot first. Here is who fired the first shot – it’s a vicious circle, it is meaningless. To stop, it is necessary to fulfill Minsk agreements in at least part of the cease-fire. Therefore, an attempt to set the “day of silence” Tomorrow, in my opinion, this is a very good attempt. God forbid that it failed.

Mikhail Sokolov: Something you said these comrades from Donetsk?

Tatyana Lokshina: It is clear that, Oleg said: We fired at, for us to shoot, they are to blame, we should all abide by, they do not comply. We are really at the moment we see a situation where people are extremely exhausted by continuous shelling. All week we spent with Oleg in the region together on the separatist front line attacks were every day and every night. Now, judging by what I have said today, friends who are in the Donetsk, shelling intensified even more, because, apparently, on the eve of “Day of Silence” military activity has increased, not decreased. Of course, the people of this desperately tired. In these accidents, under constant bombardment regions of Donetsk population calls glazed plastic windows are tightened. Because when you yourself once the window is glazed, and after the next firing glass is broken again, second time, third time, in the end you simply tighten the plastic. Of course, anger is very high.

Mikhail Sokolov: What about what they eat, where it all come from? I understand that there is no longer a normal supply?

Tatyana Lokshina: As you say, the situation is very different between the Donetsk region and the Lugansk region. If that part of the Donetsk region, which is controlled by militias, at least, acts Rinata Ahmetova Foundation, a famous Ukrainian oligarch, who is himself from Donetsk, the city is trying whenever possible to provide, respectively, the people there are, at least, enough to eat and kakuyu- that of Russian humanitarian aid, plus from Russia is delivered to a lot of building materials – is what we have seen with our eyes, everything is repaired quickly.

As for the Luhansk region – it is almost a disaster. There is clearly no consolidated management. That humanitarian aid, which is to come, judging by what we have learned, it is notorious Russian convoys and the contents of humanitarian aid, as far as we know, is divided between the warring between the combatants, once there need the same to them, too, and all contain. Something, apparently stolen. And the people in the area with whom we spoke, they did not receive anything, as one told us that the first and last time before they reached the humanitarian aid in early September – it seems to have been from the very first well-known Russian humanitarian convoy These were two cans of canned food. A little sugar and a bit of buckwheat. All the more they received nothing. We’re talking about people who have not been paid for months,

Mikhail Sokolov: George, here many criticized the Ukrainian leadership that it threw the occupied population, as they say in the Kyiv area, do not pay pensions, salaries do not provide humanitarian aid, these are the bad people run the Ukraine in Russia. What do you say?

George Quiet: I’m not Ukrainian government to make excuses or to do something. I’ll tell you my opinion. As for the decision to cut pensions, the financial institution to close, in fact, there are a number of objective reasons. It is very difficult to deliver the money to the people so that they came directly to people. There were precedents when the machine Collector robbed of them were taken out all the money. There were precedents when robbing banks. Indeed, it is very difficult. it is not a good solution. We are not talking about the fact that the Ukrainian government is somehow wanted to humiliate the Donbass, it is dictated by a number of objective reasons.

Mikhail Sokolov: If a man will leave Donetsk on Ukrainian territory, he will receive a pension there?

George Quiet: Of course. Mass people go in Slavyansk, Mariupol, as far as I know, in order to re-register and receive a pension – this possibility exists. It’s just a very difficult and dangerous for people to go through the fire zone.

Oleg Orlov: I fully understand the Ukrainian authorities when they say that it is impossible in the territory controlled by the separatists to deliver cash.

Mikhail Sokolov: Russia in Chechnya, too, did not pay, perhaps?

Oleg Orlov: Up to a certain limit to pay. The situation here is somewhat different. If there is a plastic bank cards from people that translated into these cards, the personal account of the essence of human affairs retired no problem. Another thing is that a person is really in place in Donetsk will not be able to get cash, he could go to the nearby region, logged Ukrainian forces, take your earned pension, which he is obliged to pay the state and go back. Why is it necessary to force seniors to leave their homes, go somewhere and live somewhere, it is not clear from whom, it is unclear for how much money to take the room.

George Quiet: My personal opinion is that what happens in the Lugansk and Donetsk – it is a tragedy, including the fault of Ukraine. I think we are a little bit confusing cause and effect. If we look at cities like Slavyansk and Kramatorsk, which took the Ukrainian army, there’s pensioners receive a pension, it operates public transportation, everything is provided, and no one does not punish, no one who was not crucified, except for the first channel, which crucifies the boys in themselves live in their imagination.

What is the problem? Maybe the fact that the border between Ukraine and Russia as a thoroughfare, and from there go, go, anyone, anything, and so on. We confuse one with the other.

Tatyana Lokshina: No, certainly not to say that Kiev should now feed captured a large chunk of territory of Ukraine armed groups, about not talking. But if you look at the situation in the human dimension, such as a hospital, this hospital serves the four villages, where old men are, where the patients are, where children stay. Which in this case makes the Ukraine? Ukraine calls on virtually all state employees to evacuate, promising them jobs elsewhere. Imagine a purely human, not at the level of Kiev obligations, that’s all these doctors take, collect suitcases, spit, they have not been paid for several months, and leave. What will happen to these people who have nowhere to go, whom no one offers, which have nothing to do?

George Pacific: There is no happiness and joy in the Ukraine, it does not cause, it is a tragedy that people really empathize in Ukraine. The situation is not good and not bad, it’s a choice between bad and very bad decision.

Mikhail Sokolov: About those “who comes” with Facebook I have a question: why not see the Russian soldiers who died, why they do not see human rights and so on, although the corpses and coffins being taken all over Russia? Specifically, if we ask you, Tatiana, you saw Russian soldiers, or have you seen of people in strange uniforms without insignia?

Tatyana Lokshina: Certainly, from what we see in the region, and we are driving there continuously for more than six months, the basic forces that are out there fighting – it’s local. But, of course, to deny entry to the Russian equipment, the penetration of Russian weapons, and some of the Russian military, we, too, will not. This has already been repeatedly stated NATO was appropriate confirmation from the OSCE were appropriate confirmation.

Yes, of course, from time to time you yourself, are there on the ground, you see some people who might be Russian servicemen, they are not written, but you have the impression. But this is not the majority, I would like to emphasize.

Mikhail Sokolov: By the way, what about the majority here is a moot point. I just read an interview with a young man who fought a volunteer or a mercenary, in the Urals, he came in Donbass. He said that from the squad which attacked the checkpoint 32 minutes, most, 80 percent was just visiting and local was only ten. Therefore, it may be this particular case, but it seems to me that the number of people coming there for, to put it mildly, adventure, military valor, or because of this propaganda, it increases. Or not?

Oleg Orlov: You know, to me it is very difficult to estimate, most of them, a minority, for this it is necessary to carry out research among the armed forces of the DNI, LC. You understand that we can not do that, if we try to do so, the consequences will be very dire for us. But it is clear that our troops there anyway present. “Memorial” is clearly called Russia’s actions towards Ukraine aggression.

And even during our monitoring visit last in the village near by Lugansk, we locals told us that during the August fighting, when displaced therefrom Ukrainian army, which was temporarily occupied the town, the first one who went there – they were Russian military and now only behind them came the militia. But still, as I understand it, after massive enough use of Russian troops, putting them on the territory of Ukraine, where due to their defeat of the Ukrainian army has been applied, she was forced to partially retreat, the bulk of the troops had been pulled back to Russia.

Mikhail Sokolov: Just you were brandishing a journalist came to the military in the “pot”. That was then, was whether Ukraine has a chance to win a military victory, if there was no impact to the rear of the Russian territory?

George Quiet: I have a doubt that he would be given a chance. Because the position of DNI were very fortified city, the Ukrainian intelligence service, probably supplied his forces is not enough complete information. Indeed, the battalions who came into Ilovaysk practically without armor with small arms, may be there was a mortar, was artillery unit or the battery. But in principle Ilovaiskaya were several cement plants, separatist forces poured concrete huge fortifications, these fortifications were trying to storm the Ukrainian tanks.

Mikhail Sokolov: So you filmed it all?

George Quiet: We did not remove it specifically, we removed five days, sitting in a “pot”. Tried to somehow strengthen budge, dozens of strikes in this fortification did not give any results, so take it was very problematic.

But the “boiler” could not be, if not a direct invasion, which occurred on August 24 at the Independence Day of Ukraine.

Mikhail Sokolov: That is a Russian forces?

George Quiet: I have seen with my own eyes the prisoner of the Russian military, in fact, because of which, he was not alone, there were about ten people, which captured Aug. 27 in captivity, and they promised to the corridor, there was an agreement at the level of the lower authorities.

Mikhail Sokolov: You said yourself these prisoners?

George Quiet: We did not remove them, we have witnessed the Ukrainian commander of a conversation with one of these guys prisoners. He said word for word, what you see, you tell your superiors that we are fighting normal guys, we do not want this war, this side of the same normal people. This Ukrainian leader said the captured soldiers. Indeed, what we are seeing there is also some information crime. I talked with the guys local, who were at the checkpoint near the site of the crash. This man, he’s a veteran of Afghanistan, sincerely said: “I came out to defend their land because I was attacked by the Nazis, I was attacked by NATO forces I have to go out to protect her home…” Sorry, what the fascists, which NATO forces?

Tatyana Lokshina: About the Nazis, about the NATO forces you hear regularly – this, of course, that people have learned from the remarkable Russian television, then do not say anything. In general, a huge amount of information, that is misinformation about the crimes of the junta, of Nazi crimes, which in the minds of the people even from the Russian TV.

Mikhail Sokolov: George wanted to ask more about Ilovaysk. How did you come out? I understand that was given corridor, promised, at least, Ukrainian forces there leave as a prisoner exchange, and so on, as I understand it, these agreements have not been implemented?

George Pacific: There’s enough confusing situation, in a nutshell, I can explain. August 28 was promised a corridor for the transport of the wounded and dead. August 28, we as journalists are asked to join the convoy to leave, we realized that we in the “pot”, we must also save their lives.

This convoy of the wounded, there was no military equipment, he had an agreement, there were special lists, which were compiled by the separatists tried to leave, was shot directly to the exit of the multi player the evening of the 28th and came back. There we spent the night together with them. On the morning of the 29th I received information that allegedly let all war, too, that the agreement was reached thanks to the fact that there are prisoners that Ukrainian troops will be given at the grassroots level between the commanders of the divisions, will release these forces.

In addition, the night was a statement made by President Putin of Russia, which, Novorossiya soldiers to show mercy to the Ukrainian soldiers, release. Indeed, the soldiers, we believe that we have released. Column huge, there were a lot of troops, this strategic point, the wounded, the prisoners were formed at the exit of the multi player, a suburb Ilovaysk. Colonna took several kilometers at a minimum, a giant.

We are waiting for an hour, two, three, nothing happens, there is no command to move. A column standing in the open, quite dangerous. And at some point on this column begins to shoot in a mortar. When the mines began to explode literally in a neighboring yard, it became clear that shoot through the column, in which we are including.

I saw the first armored group after firing abruptly jerked forward, the whole column, mixing in the order in some absolute chaos begins to rapidly move forward, we also break the order of machines, then just hell, the execution of all of the artillery, rocket some. 20 minutes later we went by that fire, hit the three ambushes, but we were lucky, our car was shot at, but we were lucky that it is not hooked neither our body nor the engine of the machine, we were able to jump from the battlefield, we were the only car that I was able to break through.

Later we found out why. It was agreed, everything was ready. In the morning, when the column is ready to leave, on the other side there is a new condition, we will issue you, but no weapons, you have to leave the tanks, all of the weapons. As I understand it, I accept that the Ukrainian side could not, it is hardly possible to accept such a condition, especially when it comes at the last moment. Even then it was clear that only a break with the battle, otherwise nothing.

Mikhail Sokolov: It turned out such a heavy defeat, from which the Ukrainian army still can not get over it?

George Quiet: In principle it is turn the tide, it is pushed to the signing of the Minsk agreements, which, unfortunately, are not fulfilled. In Ukraine, by the way, the Minsk agreement is very painful way to perceive, but nevertheless, the majority of society, despite the emotional state among people understand that this is the only way out, otherwise it is impossible. This is a losing game from the beginning.

As soon as the Ukrainian troops are trying their territory somehow pass, when they come to some strategic point, just when there is a blow to the Russian territory. I did the enemy to win the Donbass before the end, I believe that it is absolutely unnecessary. A situation that is at the moment, you favorite way to stop the war.

Well, to be self-contained area, an autonomous republic, no matter what, just frosting on where to eat. But the other side, even this is not enough, because they want to, that there was some sort of smoldering conflict. Apparently not satisfied with the world somebody Ukraine would suit the world, I think, in such boundaries as now is, would be to establish delivery of food and humanitarian things, but at the moment it is also impossible.

Mikhail Sokolov: The word “prisoners” have sounded, what’s going on with the prisoners? First exchanges were quite massive, now it turns out that somehow everything stalled. Something you learned?

Tatyana Lokshina: We are aware of what is now a lot written and said. Exchanges occur, they occur on a regular basis, but it exchanges in small groups. 8 On the one hand, on the other side of 8, 10 on the one hand, on the other side of 10. But if one group has some particularly valuable prisoner, it can change to 5 people, 10 people at one. But we are talking about a system that was originally flawed. Because if it is, in principle, the exchange of prisoners, and it is not an exchange of all for all, the only one that really works, so each side has the motivation to prisoners, read the hostages, there were more, and even if, God forbid, , you they will not be the one you’ll continue to change? And it can last for a very long time.

Mikhail Sokolov: Oleg Petrovich, there are some facts are already recorded, found out about the treatment of prisoners? Because to us, even turning, they ask lost people taken prisoner, is it possible to find them? I suspect that it is bad there were extrajudicial executions. Even some of the “heroes” to war in Luganda, is now happily say: yes, we are representatives of the Ukrainian volunteer battalions, we shot them on the spot. Incidentally, the military crime.

Oleg Orlov: I know some of the facts, at least, was talking with some people, in particular, with the former Battalion “Aydar”. The information provided to me, I seem to be absolutely reliable, that, at least in the battalion “Aidar” in relation to some of the prisoners behavior was a battalion of fighters is very cruel, so to speak. Beatings, torture and even deaths from ill-treatment of prisoners of war, those who are called militias. There have also been cases of seizure of a civilian. Why – is unclear. Perhaps in order to increase the capitalization.

Mikhail Sokolov: There, too, in the prisons as hostages sit civilians in Donetsk and Luhansk.

Oleg Orlov: me when not all for all, and this trade starts, it makes sense to grab more. Including, by the way, do not rule out some facts point to it, that was the case for commercial purposes and the capture of certain civilians for ransom for them, to extort from them a particular property.

Mikhail Sokolov: That is again, as in Chechnya?

Oleg Orlov: Yes, it is, unfortunately, beginning to resemble Chechnya. Tanya said right from the moment when he refused or failed to achieve the principle of “all for all”, began more and more a situation reminiscent of human trafficking in Chechnya.

Tatyana Lokshina: Of course, the information that we have today, with the civilian prisoners treated particularly nasty. Because the military combatants are more expensive, sorry for such an ugly cynicism in the air, but they are more profitable, you can change it, that is how they are perceived. Therefore, civil more problems with the abuse, torture and so on.

Mikhail Sokolov: Probably still denunciations. I’ve read a remarkable text, like someone was arrested in one of these “republics” denounced that “the spirit of the commander called out Bandera Roman Shukhevych.” It sounds funny, but the person took.

Tatyana Lokshina: Unfortunately, it is quite certain, judging by the stories that we encountered there. I myself in the summer worked on the report on the situation of detainees, of torture, of abductions, unlawful detainer detained by the so-called DNR and LNR. Of course, this kind of civil detention, mistreatment of civilians, beatings, torture and forcing civilians to work for DNR and LNR occurred in a systematic way, judging by the fact that we are now able to learn, they continue to occur on a regular basis.

Sometimes it’s just a kind of detention on a completely fantastic denunciations. Personally, I am faced with a case that the man was taken away, because he had Bandera mustache, and someone took because he traveled around the city by bicycle, and “cycling is done exclusively spotters and gunners”, of course, the local warring just obsession with spotters and gunner, they are looking for them in every possible and impossible place, a person can easily get into a situation, even though he himself is to anything not involved, did not express any criticism, did not express any public position, he lived a normal life th, on a bicycle rode in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Or with regard to forced labor, it functioned for a long time, still less function, as I understand it, the so-called punitive brigade – this is when people take because they were seen with a bottle of beer, for example, open to the street, or they violated the curfew, the curfew in Donetsk after 11pm. Then they are taken, they begin to dig ditches, sandbags load at checkpoints and so on. Naturally, this is not strictly voluntary, plus people’s lives in serious danger, because at the checkpoint all quite easy. Yet returning to the issue of prisoners, while these exchanges take place in small groups, there is an additional motivation for each side, that there were many prisoners, that was a lot of hostages, and no end in sight. We remember quite well, both have the same problem was solved in the course of the war in South Ossetia, the war between Russia and Georgia in 2008, at that time personally Commissioner for Human Rights of the Council of Europe was trying to coordinate the exchange and ensure the exchange of all for all. As a result, I must say, it has turned out.

Mikhail Sokolov: That is, apparently, it is necessary to involve Europe. George, tell me how to look at the situation with the people, which Russia does not want to accept the prisoners, change, and so on – Nadezhda Savchenko, Sentsov, film director, and so on, those who are in Russian prisons. Ukraine someone offered to exchange them?

George Quiet: It seems to me absurd situation initially. Do you think that Ukrainian citizen gets in a Russian prison, having been exported from the Ukrainian territory. I think this is a game of some sort. If Russia pleads belligerent, please, let’s exchange of prisoners, but Russia does not recognize itself belligerent.

Mikhail Sokolov: And you recognize her belligerent? I read Ukrainian press: there is occupation, Russian soldiers everywhere. Combat Melnichuk broadcast said tomorrow I can steal a Russian officer and present it in Kiev. True, it is not presented.

George Quiet: If I have seen with my own eyes a Russian tank on the Ukrainian Donbas a Russian soldier, what they do there?

Mikhail Sokolov: The Russians say this: they get lost, they leave the tank, something else is delusional and absurd. And by the way, is valid. Most fantastic, this delirium affects people.

George Quiet: an unprecedented level of propaganda. Soviet propaganda was not so frantic, I think.

Mikhail Sokolov: Hitler was, for example.

George Quiet: This is a matter of comparison, but then something similar. You understand that it all started with an information attack, because nothing would be if the Russian TV does not tell of the coming of the Nazis and NATO officials at the Donbass, who did not go actually.

Mikhail Sokolov: A NATO fleet in Sevastopol on the air “went” …

George Quiet: I’m living in Ukraine, I know that NATO is a threat in the sense that if you say the word, God forbid, then you can attack Russia because she is afraid of him. Here is a “threat” by NATO, as I perceive it.

Mikhail Sokolov: Oleg Petrovich, after all, what to do with these people who are in prison in a strange position? Savchenko, Sentsov and so on, “Memorial”, think about this?

Oleg Orlov: If we talk about Savchenko, we recognized its political prisoners, in my opinion, it should be released. Because all the charges against her are politically motivated, charges are absolutely not supported by the facts. Exchange it – is absurd, it is necessary to release it.

Mikhail Sokolov: Deputy Parliament will sit, if not exchanged. Maybe Kombat Melnichuk caught last Russian special forces and will be someone to change it?

Oleg Orlov: If you follow the path of the final Chechenisation, then yes, then it is so. But this road to nowhere, to nowhere.

Here, it seems to me, the assessment by the events in Ukraine also has a dual character. On the one hand, the occupation, on the other hand it’s called anti-terrorist operation. Still, what we have?

Mikhail Sokolov: you offer them to declare war? Slava Rabinovich wrote popular blogger: if Ukraine will declare war on Russia, and everything will be clear.

Oleg Orlov: declare martial law in this part of the territory may have been, and correctly.

Mikhail Sokolov: Putin did not announce the same in Chechnya nor military or emergency situation, so it was convenient.

Oleg Orlov: Absolutely agree with you. This is what we in our documents at the beginning of the conflict have written that, unfortunately, many of the techniques that the Russian authorities are used in Chechnya, unfortunately, the Ukrainian government plays in the course of the conflict, including the name of the armed conflict in fact the international nature of the case anti-terror operation.

George Quiet: By the way, in Ukraine, too many are dissatisfied with what is called anti-terrorist operation, too say, let’s call a spade a spade. There is a war, it is not necessary to call this ATO, really.

But on the other hand, why it happened, not because Ukraine wanted to somehow commercials to call, but because when it all began, when it was proclaimed, then you remember the army of Ukraine there was no, because she ’23 I was not going to war with anyone. And at the same time one of its borders is one of the strongest armies in the world was built by Russia, is built along the border. Therefore, the fear to call it a war, because it would mean the invasion of the troops, who stood at the border.

Mikhail Sokolov: I’ve heard the argument that the elections could not be carried out if no presidential or parliamentary.

George Quiet: This is nonsense, because you can easily change the norm in the law and to carry out, it is not so difficult. I do not call occupation what is happening in Donetsk – it’s still a mixed conflict.

Mikhail Sokolov: Mixed, what goes with what?

George Quiet: the Civil War and foreign intervention. And that’s the problem. It was really dislike in Donetsk in Ukraine in the past and the rejection of Ukraine, but it would have never escalated into a military conflict, if not inciting his neighbor.

Mikhail Sokolov: If it had not brought up the weapon.

George Quiet: Not brought up a weapon and did an information attack, after which the people at the checkpoint said that the Nazis and NATO troops are on me.

Oleg Orlov: If it were not mishandled Girkin types of people.

George Quiet: A Girkin himself admitted, he said: “I moved his troops abroad, I started the war I came to Donetsk, nobody wanted to fight, all in a cafe sitting, but I pressed the hook…”

Tatyana Lokshina: Yes, the interview, of course, absolutely incredible. The fact that a person walks across Moscow and give such an interview, it is in itself worth a lot.

But I would like to emphasize that there is misinformation on both sides. In fact, over and over again Kiev says that does not use the same “Grads” Settlements, no blows, does not use cluster munitions and so on, ignoring any evidence at the level of their public positions. Of course, talk is very specific on this point occur. Because thou sayest, I am now here I am now in a certain area, “Donetsk” on it was hit “Castle” Ukrainian there. On it you say, but how do you prove that it could not deliver themselves separatists “hail” in the same area where you stand, a hundred meters away, and do around the area just around the corner hit the “Castle”? Of course, on such a question has nothing to say.

Mikhail Sokolov: It’s about the same as discussing the Russian military, you say: “They do not have the same shape and the Russian markings, so they are not the Russian military.”

George Quiet: The first is, it happens sometimes.

Mikhail Sokolov: Forget removed?

George Quiet: Digital camouflage the Russian, who is also Russia, Ukraine can not be a grab and Voentorg buy too.

You are absolutely right, really Donetsk under fire, including Ukraine, Ukrainian troops and “Grad”. But there is a war, and the war in one of the most densely populated areas of Europe and may be because of Donbass – is the agglomeration of cities, where the city flows into the city between Donetsk and Makeyevka no boundaries, just one huge city. The war is the same weapon, the same “Grads”, the same mines, the same tanks and the same people, a fratricidal war.

Tatyana Lokshina: In this respect, in terms of PR, pardon the expression, the separatists are in a more advantageous position, because they are entrenched in the most densely populated areas. Therefore, when the Ukrainian forces beat on him, at this point immediately it sounds – civilian loss disproportionate harm to civilians, destruction of civilian objects, loss of life and so on. While the situation with the Ukrainian forces of the other, their positions are arranged in a different way, not in densely populated areas.

Oleg Orlov: We have seen instances where the LC artillery destroyed villages exactly the same as the Ukrainian irons today. So that both sides are practically very close. To do that, in my opinion, the first thing to do – stop the fire.

Mikhail Sokolov: It needs a political solution.

Oleg Orlov: We’ll see tomorrow.

George Quiet: And the Russian army there, because it alone can maintain discipline, unfortunately.

Mikhail Sokolov: So if Putin gives an order, it will cease fire?

George Quiet: Without the Russian army to maintain discipline there can not be – it’s a fact. May not like my words, in Ukraine, in Russia may not like it, but it’s true.

Mikhail Sokolov: That is, they need to curb these gangs?

George Quiet: They need to be reined in, of course.

Sourse, 08/12/2014