I would sit down with the devil though bald at the negotiating table

The room, which takes in Kiev Ukrainian management of the largest international human rights organization Amnesty International – is a number of small offices located in the former apartment in an old house on Lukyanovka. It is here that sometimes emblematic of the history of Ukraine – and, without exaggeration, the world – events.

When Ukrainian Amnesty released a report on the situation of human rights violations, which were reported looting, rape, torture captives Battalion “Aydar” Society outraged.

They say, can not be our volunteers and patriots to behave this way. Such reports supposedly defaming the honor and dignity of the Ukrainian military, and therefore, an organization that produces them – unpatriotic. Therefore, it is working on the Kremlin.

Indeed, the Russian propaganda did not fail to take advantage of this juicy texture: on television in Russia and in the occupied territories of Donbass spread stories about volunteers punisher, raping and killing insurgents and civilians.

This precedent has stepped up an interesting process: steel opened such cases and in other volunteer battalions, and soon within the leadership of “Aydar” there was a final split and the former battalion commander Sergei Melnychuk was dismissed , and the “Aydar” spent “cleaning”.

Recently, he was deprived of parliamentary immunity , and the Prosecutor General Viktor Shokin said that Melnychuk for organizing a criminal gang threatens life imprisonment .

No less a storm of criticism and triggered statement Ukrainian Amnesty that disrupted a truce not only fighters, but the Ukrainian military.

Everyone coming out of a small office human rights report – sensation, each articulated the problem – an occasion for passionate debate.

“Ukrainian Truth” talked at length with the director of Ukrainian control Amnesty Tatyana Mazur. She described how human rights defenders gets information about human rights violations in the occupied territories and in the ATO zone, why during the war, human rights activists prefer truth silencing, extrajudicial executions, torture, hunting for LGBT activists and the refusal of Ukraine to fulfill the obligations to respect rights man in Donbass.

– Amnesty International regularly accused of is that you are not acting patriotically towards Ukraine, because telling about the atrocities of volunteer battalions, about the army shelling civilian neighborhoods, and so on. How do you respond to such accusations?

– First, let me remind you that Amnesty International – is an international human rights organization, and any country we always look from the perspective of human rights.

When we talk about human rights, we do not mean some abstract category – the right to a bright sky above, for example, as some fantasize – and human rights. Here they are, hanging in front of a desk – this is a common Declaration of Human Rights (Anastasia shows a piece of paper hanging on the wall – UP.)

We have no political affiliation – we are an independent organization. Of course, this is difficult to do especially in situations of conflict. If you look at all the conflict in the east as in the confrontation between Ukraine and Russia, we look from the perspective of human rights.

– But the war itself is in some sense also a violation of human rights, because in war people are killed, right?

– Of course. Unfortunately. But There is a myth that there are no rules in war. Want to smash this myth not only we, but also politicians, including the new Ukrainian policy. During any war, acts of international law, the Geneva Convention.

The conflict in the east of Ukraine – it is not the first conflict in the history of mankind.

Mankind has two huge World War II, and the postwar period is characterized by the fact that global community is trying to figure out how to avoid such casualties in the future. That is why the Geneva Convention was adopted, and in her recorded humane principles. That is the war admitted, but the way they are – is another question entirely. In the conflict in any case should not suffer the civilian population shall not be used torture and extrajudicial executions, which we saw, and so on.

– What kind of extrajudicial speech?

– This penalty, which are described, in particular, in our last study, which was published in late May.

We have recorded incidents of extrajudicial executions in relation to the Ukrainian military. There is a video, when it is clear that the prisoner take the Ukrainian military, who are alive at the time of entering into captivity, and then relatives are dead.

That is the person in captivity, and with him were to be treated humanely, it had to be fed, to provide him with medical care. It can not be torture and kill. Such standard.

And last fall, for example, we are the expert commented on a lie, the Russian propaganda broadcast. Then there were the hysterical reports of mass killings, on the grave of 300-400 people, women and pregnant women with signs of torture.

Our researchers at the time were near the places where these graves were allegedly found (not far from Donetsk – UP), they were able to get there quickly and found three burial.

In one there were people, judging by the position of the body and the failure of which it was clear that they were killed in the military operations. And in the other two graves bodies were bound behind his back with his hands and bullet holes in the temple.

And here we are emerging doubts. At this point I want to emphasize that we are a human rights organization which works great, talented and professional researchers, but they are not investigators. This means that the final point of the “i” should place the bodies of investigation and trial.

Their reports, we are trying to attract attention to the problems that arise: the kidnapping, extrajudicial killings, crimes of volunteer battalions, torture and ill-treatment of prisoners …

We see some trends and fix them in our reports. And each report ends with a clear list of recommendations, which we write as much as possible to remedy the situation, what steps to take this. We even systematize, they should get in any authority.

For example, the government should condemn torture. Everyone from the president and ending with small the police officers, should send a clear signal that torture is unacceptable.

– And the president has ever talked about it?

– Do not we have heard. Maybe not all the filtering, but it was the right time June 26 – International Day of Solidarity with the victims of torture, and the European Union’s leaders have made statements in this regard.

In my opinion, this was a great opportunity for Mr. Poroshenko and Mr. Yatsenyuk speak out.

– Did you expect this from them?

– We would greatly welcome. It’s probably best not to expect, and then pleasantly surprised, as, for example, the statement of the President before the Equality March …

– Speaking of the event. Police worked relatively well – consistently and selflessly. In your opinion, this is due to the statement of the president? If he had not acted in support of the march, the police would have behaved differently?

– For the third consecutive year, Amnesty supports the Equality March. More precisely, the first attempt was in 2012, but then we did not have the opportunity to support the organizers, they canceled the march themselves, they broke during a press conference.

In 2013, the march passed without casualties, fully surrounded by the police. In 2014, the organizers at the last moment decided not to go, because there was no “green light” from the police.

This year, on the one hand, there were quite a lot at the venue of the march, and they acted really professional. We brought condolences to police officers, suffered an injury, visited the hospital Romana – was the name of a policeman, a young guy, 26 years old, who was the most seriously injured.

On the other hand, these victims could have been avoided if the police moved on to a constructive dialogue and began to prepare for a day before. We have had three meetings with the police, and all have been frustrating for organizers. “Why do you need this? And who discriminates against you?” – I had to answer such questions. And because all of these meetings took place with the participation of our employees and representatives of the diplomatic community – from the European delegation, the US Embassy, ​​the Netherlands, etc.

Of course, today the situation in comparison with 2013 year has changed, and many people with weapons, including illegal, is the radicalization of the society due to the fact that the country’s military conflict with the factor of external aggression. I hope everyone will take into account these errors and everything will be much better next year.

And also a very important element now – do not breathe a sigh of relief that all alive -Health and investigate acts of violence. All the same, and the police and the marchers were injured.

However, the police are investigating into the bullying. Homophobic motive is not taken to attention, and that is bad, because we do not call a spade a spade.

There are groups on social networks, which are called zero tolerance, which publishes pictures of the organizers of the LGBT march. At the extreme right it is called “Safari” – the hunt for the participants and organizers of the Pride. You can in fact track on IP-addresses who do.

– There have been cases when and Ukrainian officials have disseminated information about the people who are promoting separatism and the pro-Russian views of Ukraine. By this you have to offer as a treat?

– Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. If there is no call to violence …

– There is, for example, sites that are laid out addresses and phone numbers of people. It does not appeal to deal with this or that person?

– Somewhere it escaped my attention, we did not have a position or assessment of such incidents. But I will say that there are two problems. Lynching, of course, it would be necessary to avoid. How can we expect that lynching would be fair? This fact encourages people to act in this way. At some point, society wants to restore justice and to begin “junk lustration”, and so on. This is a very dangerous trend.

We criticize the authorities to push to certain actions. They should understand that tomorrow in the dustbin could be it. In general, would like to see political leaders have been careful with the statements they make, they treated their words more responsibly.

You can not love them and criticize, but they are the leaders, and many are following suit. It is necessary to distinguish between, on the one hand, have the right to freedom of expression, but it should not violate the rights of others – to the protection of personal information, for example.

If someone says that this or that region should be, in his opinion, in any other, it is a matter of law is not a problem. But if he says that it is necessary to take the fork and go to the region to fight, that’s another matter.

How many centuries is a question of Scotland’s secession from the UK? There are even political parties who defend the idea of ​​independence, and, in fact, they are the separatists, but they do it very differently, and compare them with what is happening on our east, you can not.

– Oh, by the way, perhaps because, in the future, and the party will be in Ukraine, advocating for the separation of Donbass.

– Maybe, but that’s something we have not seen in the Crimea, and what I see in the east. Maybe the Crimea and had become independent, and the population may have supported his office, but this is not discussed! How could people in the referendum, which took place two weeks after the events Evromaydane, and after the peninsula was filled with people with arms freely express their attitude to this complex subject of the discussion?

I think if there was an opportunity for constructive discussion, everything turned out differently.

– By the way, in the Crimea there are representatives of Amnesty?

– No, but we went there in February, three researchers did report to the anniversary of the events. In short, there is a sad situation.

– That’s me to the fact that it is important that there was constantly a human rights mission. Maybe, at least with the Russian representatives of the organization.

– Yes, but it is a question first of all resources. We would like to investigators sat in different regions, but there are not many. And the second – is a security problem.

In Crimea operates joint Russian-Ukrainian field mission – common initiative of the Russian and Ukrainian human rights defenders under the leadership of Andrei Yurov, but we decided that we would do your research, because we have a great asset – accumulated over 50 years of the organization’s image, information that can be trusted. It is very important to attract the attention of the Crimea, otherwise it does fall out of the information field.

And yet, because the Ukrainian government would also like to do a lot more for at least the Crimean people that went to the peninsula …

– And it’s not only about the residents of the Crimea, and of migrants in general.

– Of course. I understand that this is a problem new to Ukraine. This is a problem that we have not encountered before.

We used to have the number of refugees in the thousands, and now we have hundreds of thousands of internally displaced persons, and this is a very big problem. Many international organizations are helping them, but the request must form the Ukrainian authorities, and this does not happen very quickly and effectively, as we know it.

– You raise very critical issues to the authorities. For example, you say of shelling the civilian population, and in a sense you are in opposition to the government, which claims the opposite. You put in the work some obstacles due to the fact that you call a spade a spade?

– Please tell about the shelling. Civilian killed, and then do not have to be a genius to figure that out, because Donetsk is in the separatist authorities.

In addition, the known technique when separatists run into the house, firing in the direction of Ukrainian troops, and because of the fact that there is no high-precision weapons, they shoot back and fall into a civilian facility. This was the calculation of the separatists. But the responsibility shared by the two sides.

With regard to the obstacles, I know that many of us do not like. Moreover, there are fellow human rights activists, who believe that the same questions can be raised in a different way, behind the scenes.

– To “not to frighten”?

– Well, not to feed the Russian propaganda.

– Do you think it’s wrong?

– I believe that and that, and that is correct, but we – dog gazing, we are famous for that raise serious problems. Backstage we are trying to promote the ratification of the Rome Statute, although not particularly behind the scenes. The fact that we go out into the public sphere, as a rule, gives a result, the authorities are beginning to respond.

Objective obstacles, inspections or threats by the authorities, we did not. But in Russia Amnesty situation is very complicated. First, there is introduced a law on “foreign agents”, but under it not hit the office, and now there was a law about “undesirable organizations.” And now they tell us that most likely it will be announced the same junk organization. In this case, the Russian propaganda constantly pulls from our reports that to their advantage. We and the United States criticize such reports, they also love.

Yes, many people say, here you are not patriots, why do you criticize our? But at the same time, all our reports resonate with so many people. We have a growing number of activists, and we tell people where we take the information on how to collect, and it reassures them.

– And tell me, how do you do? As you can imagine, that this source can be trusted? How do you know, for example, that a battalion party is telling the truth, rather than trying to manipulate?

– Global, Amnesty, by the way, has changed the structure of our report. Now everyone starts with the methodology, which explains in detail how we came to the conclusion, according to the report.

For us it is very important to talk to the victims, the primary source. There is a methodology for conducting an interview. This in-depth interview, we are interested in the details, so we can check it out. During the interview, there is often, if there is an error, and in many cases it is clear whether a person is telling the truth.

these conversations are confidential, and we try to find members of the same events and individual surveys. Important documents. We are trying to see if there is evidence of a crime. If it is the victim of torture should be medical records: X-rays, medical indications. Sometimes we are told that a further partner organizations. Generally hide anything right now is unreal, somewhere it still pops up.

Our researchers do not only go to the field and talk to the participants in the events, but also engaged in cabinet work – hours watching videos, monitors social networks.

– Why do many people think that to raise human rights issues in time of war is not worth it?

– I think that is not quite formed yet our society.

Let’s go outside and ask, what are human rights. I’m not sure that many will answer at least roughly correct on this question. But I do not want to heavily criticize the Ukrainian society, because it is necessary to understand at what stage we are historically.

We only ’24 independence, and before that was an awful Soviet Union, in which the category of civil rights did not exist. However, sodomy was a crime. The transformation of society and the realization that euromaidan and Equality March is unambiguous in terms of human rights events, will come, but it does take work, including us.

By the way, we are launching an educational program in the field of human rights, and I look forward to when the new employee starts to work on its development.

– How much it will be ambitious?

– to solve the mystery: it will be online education, user-friendly. Sin not to use new technologies, and must take into account the context in which we find ourselves – time people have little to read some scientific articles on the law.

– Returning to the theme of war. The phrase “the parties have accused each other of firing” has already become a classic, and in fact a manipulation, which is used by both parties. As in this situation to maintain the objectivity and credibility of the information?

– To tell the truth.

– Well, this is, in fact, true, but it zamylivaet look at the big picture.

– remember once again the story of the Battalion “Aydar”. In late August, with the east of Ukraine returned our researcher (he reports to the British guide – UP) and spoke about the violation of “Aydar”.

Our first reaction was shock. Then we held a briefing, and our Secretary-General took the fire itself: first, stated that the conflict is international, and Russia is a party, and then spoke about the violation of “Aydar”. We had a serious talk in the office. We trust a priori and researchers wanted to understand how the information was gathered, with whom there was talk. We have been working with activists and supporters, we told them what and how.

Our task – not to make noise and be heard and understood. After the briefing, we had a meeting in the prosecutor’s office, and we were told that there is already a criminal case on “Aydar”. And then we started calling people and telling, that were affected by the actions of men from the battalion.

– And in the occupied territory of your researchers appear?

– Yes, the same Krassimir Yankiv. There is another researcher …

– Is there a formal agreement with the other side?

– There is no agreement. Our researchers are going banal themselves. The walls are also not there.

– But there is a danger factor.

– Yes, it’s always a big risk. Risk to fall under the bullets, and, as a rule, where there are active battles killed civilians and that it was important to interview. Until recently, they received accreditation in the “DNR” and there were no problems …

– Despite the fact that you are, in their opinion, the agents of the State Department?

– Maybe they’re just not fully understood who it was. Or maybe, they claim that they are not separatists, and rebels fighting for a just cause, so in the eyes of the world want to look more or less decent. This is us in some way helps.

But in early June in the “DNR” and “LC” was adopted a decree banning the activities of international non-governmental organizations that cooperate with Kiev.

What this means is we do not know, but whatever our report to take – it is not like none of the representatives of the “DNR” and “LNR”. In addition, it should be understood that if the Ukrainian example, I have been robbed, I know how to act and who to complain to rely on what laws, and everything is illusory. But it is important to get.

Our researcher, for example, saw in Donetsk spontaneous market where people sell everything that is possible. you begin to understand what is going on due to such moments. We hear reports of officials, first of all, about the death of the Ukrainian military and human history are lost on this background. And they are just important for understanding what is happening in the Donbas.

– Who, in your opinion, is responsible for the humanitarian situation, which it has developed?

– It is difficult to say, because the situation is constantly changing.

– But there are indicators that the same: because of the blockade in the region are not available medications. Insulin, for example.

– In my personal opinion, the decision to block the region was not the right one. Too many people are in a catastrophic situation. As far as I know, many aspects have become a source of corruption.

For example, we recently called our supporters, the teacher, who taught human rights in the 90 organized and our events. She Ukrainian-son in Kiev, and she remained in Torez, because parents restricted to travel abroad, and in general, to move here is not easy. So, she called and cried. When a blocked region, many pensioners, including her mother, were formed in other cities and receive a pension on the bank account, but they have to periodically go there. They withdraw money in the city can not, because banks do not work, and the prices are catastrophic.

I’m not a politician, so I can not say whether it was right for the state. But for people who are there – probably not. That I have done differently?

 I think it was necessary to give more guarantees for internally displaced persons. We are fighting for a piece of territory, or for the people? What is a priority for the government? If this is the people that create the conditions for those who really want to be a part of Ukraine. And then you have to deal with the ground.

– As far as I know, representatives of international organizations – UN, Unisef and others – can not officially carry humanitarian aid to the occupied territories, so pass it through volunteers. Why in the conditions of this kind of conflict can not change some of the rules? And in general, whether to adjust to the new conditions and it is time to human rights and charity organizations?

– It’s hard to comment on the rules of other organizations, but I can say that what is happening in the east, is not unique. The same Syrian situation, there are a lot of similar nuances. Or here’s “Islamic State” is gaining momentum. These crises occur in different parts of the world.

When we published our last annual report on the world, it was said that these quasi-states and the conflicts around them are the greatest source of human rights violations. And they call for a second major problem – the influx of refugees and internally displaced persons.

The world is changing, and we are also trying to adapt and respond properly to situations, but not always, it happens fast. I suppose that the other organizations takes place just as well, and they think on changing its rules, but it will take some time. One of our strategic objectives for the next five years – a reaction to crisis situations.

– Ukraine abandoned its responsibility for the violation of human rights in the Donbas. Can you explain how this is possible at all?

– It’s possible. In this case it was a question of the European Convention and several other documents. If the state took over the protection of human rights obligations, and then realized that he could not fulfill these obligations, there can honestly say this. In this case – because there is no physical access to the territory.

– Probably, it is not very well affect the image of the country, is not it?

– It was a logical step, which is worth a lot to do before.

– In the past – this is when?

– Ukraine has made changes to some laws in connection with the ATO, in particular in the Code of Criminal Procedure. There is a provision stating that a person without a court order may be contained in jail just 72 hours. This is – the norm of the Constitution and European law. A deputy to extend this to 30 days. This is unacceptable. Such initiatives are contrary to the spirit and norms of the European Convention.

In addition, the state of Ukraine has no objective possibility to protect and guarantee human rights in the territory.

– A shift duties on Russian can there?

– Of course not! Not sure that’s all there in the judgment. Well, Ukraine has not completely abandoned the observance of human rights, but only partially. Because executions and torture are absolutely prohibited.

But the Ukrainian government could do much more for the respect of human rights – to ratify the same international criminal court (ICC was established by the Rome Statute, which has not yet been ratified by Ukraine – UP), who is investigating serious international crimes – genocide, crimes against humanity, war crimes.

If Ukraine joined him, much more effective would start work Ukrainian law enforcement agencies, including the military prosecutor’s office. But military commanders would be better to think about how to make war.

However, instead of joining the club of countries that respect international humanitarian law, we hear stupid statements by Ukrainian politicians that the Russian film “Crimea. The way home” sent to the international court as evidence of Putin’s crimes. And they are stupid, because in regard to the Crimea, there was the composition of the crimes of concern to the ICC.

– What, in your opinion, you can build a world?

– I am not an expert in these conflicts, but I would like the world to be achieved through negotiations rather than military solutions. As much as it may sound philosophical, but human life is very valuable. I am very hurt when people are being killed – civilians, military Ukrainian separatists. It’s very scary. A tangle of violence is wound, and the more victims, the more difficult it will be to unravel. So I would very much like the world to be achieved through negotiations. I would sit down with the devil though bald at the same table.

Now Ukraine has the unprecedented support of the international community – both moral and material, and expert. In order to not lose her, Ukraine needs to conduct themselves in this conflict is very worthy. If the opposing party to us violates human rights, this is not the reason for our military to break.

Many wars. Part of the peace process is a fair trial in all that was happening, and bringing to justice those who have violated human rights and committed war crimes.

I think that Ukraine is time to think about how it will be. For victims war will not end until there is satisfaction. It is important to get answers to many questions and compensation in a global sense.

In addition, the communication strategy of the authorities could be much better. The Russian propaganda is difficult to fight, but need to do it in all possible ways.

And you need to think not only about the war, but also about what kind of state we are building. Perhaps this should even invest more. Because the last thing interested Putin – a reformed Ukraine. He needs the state unchanged.

Sourse, 06/07/2015