How to help the Ukrainians in the Russian prisons?
Vitaly Portnikov: Ukrainian prisoners of Russian prisons – what happens to them, how you can contribute to their liberation? What should be the actions of the Ukrainian authorities after people return from prison? We were invited to the studio of Radio Liberty Yuri Yatsenko , one of those who spent a year (from May 2014 to May 2015 th) imprisoned in the Russian Federation. And now he is the special representative of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine on the release of political prisoners in Russia.
It took more than six years after your release. How are you feeling? I remember that it was a difficult stage of your life, have physical problems, if I am not mistaken, you are currently applied to injury …
Yuri Yatsenko: Yes, it was necessary to cut his wrists in order to stop the torture. I make it easier to cut his wrists and stomach, than to suffer bullying. At least, I thus maintain their health, and gave themselves known to the outside world. I slashed his wrists and said he did not give himself to sew until I give the phone to call home. Luckily, they went to my ultimatum and gave me the phone. After this rather cruel act of torture to me is no longer applied to me to draw attention of the international community and the Ukrainian authorities.
Vitaly Portnikov: Radio Liberty and other media have written about your business. What happened after you were released?
Yuri Yatsenko: I was shocked, coming out of the train – the first time I saw the sky for the year, because I was in a chamber mode. The first thing that happened to do – is to give an interview, I was greeted by journalists. Then a press conference and an interview I gave at intervals several times a month or even a week. I set a goal as much as possible to tell the world what happened to me, and by their example to show what happens with other political prisoners, and exactly how the FSB and the Kremlin fabricated case.
Vitaly Portnikov: You do understand why it ended up in prison? After all, hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian citizens cross the Russian-Ukrainian border, living and working in Russia – why did you choose it?
Yuri Yatsenko: I also thought it was in the framework of this logic. Then the political prisoners who spoke very little. I even could not imagine that in the XXI century, I, a law student may simply close. What I taught for five years – the guarantee of human rights, various international documents signed and Russia – do not function. I just could not believe that this can happen, and even more so with me.
Vitaly Portnikov: After liberation you have not tried to get the Russian authorities at least a legal explanation of what was happening, legal rehabilitation?
Yuri Yatsenko: I tried, but the question is – who will finance lawyer. When I was in Russia in prison, parents and friends gathered with the world on a string: with students, with classmates, with classmates, with international organizations, and all thrown off a lawyer because no lawyer is very expensive. Already freed and returned to Ukraine, I would like to appeal to a higher authority, but not corny enough money for a lawyer to file with the Supreme Court on appeal.
Vitaly Portnikov: Now it is clear that lawyers needed for those who remain in detention.
Tell me, what can be done for people with Ukrainian passports, which are in Russian prisons? We can call them political prisoners, but Russia does not consider them as such, from the perspective of Russian justice, are ordinary criminals who have committed a crime. Their Ukrainian passports allowing them to put pressure on the Russian justice, seek sentences to which Russian citizens can not be counted.
Yuri Yatsenko: Exactly. The first thing I advise you to refer to the human rights defenders who are engaged in this sphere, and to the Ukrainian government. The government were worked out some of the skills and algorithms for how to proceed in this situation. Yes, you will include in the list of political prisoners will try to inform you about the world. But, as we have seen, we were released just six people. When I was released, prisons were 12 political prisoners, now there are 44. That is, Russia is not afraid.
I advise you not to fall into this situation, not to go to Russia. And if you have already got, then try every way to transmit information to the outside world, to act, only relying on logical arguments, not to give any testimony, hire a Ukrainian lawyer and inform the Ukrainian Foreign Ministry.
Vitaly Portnikov: You understand the logic of how the delay of these people on the territory of Russia?
Yuri Yatsenko: I think that a random logic. I think the task is: given an indication to catch a certain number of people, and the investigating authorities are already working. Another point: maybe one or another investigator wants to curry favor with the government. Yes, the Russian authorities have the desire to create an image of the enemy from Ukrainians to justify a hybrid war in Ukraine, to show the international community how dangerous Ukrainians. I recently heard the message of the Russian authorities, which are activated in the Crimea Ukrainian raiding. So, perhaps, we should expect new political prisoners, as it is sad.
Vitaly Portnikov: Do not you think that these are different legal regimes? The detention of people in the Crimea – is a legal regime for the detention of people in the Donetsk and Lugansk regions – the other, and detention in Russia – is a kind of a different situation?
Yuri Yatsenko: I, human rights activists and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs together people who were detained in the Crimea, and the people who were detained in the territory of Russia. If we are talking about so-called DNR and LNR, there are already in the Minsk agreement, and Russia at least in theory recognizes that these people need to exchange them. And then Russia says no, it’s our criminals.
The tactics must be different. I think the Ukrainian authorities themselves do not fully know how to release these people. That is a new challenge for the country, and it is difficult, because the keys of the prison in Russia.
Vitaly Portnikov: Your social work the Special Representative of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs made it clear to you the possibility of tapping the state mechanisms in this case, or, on the contrary, everything has become more complicated and confusing?
Yuri Yatsenko: Recent statements by the Ukrainian government opened. Ukraine offered to exchange more than 200 people who are interested in DNR and LNR, 40 Ukrainians, but they do not agree and do not even negotiate on this issue. And speaking of the Russian prisoners, Putin and the Russian people do not want to change on their own people, which is also in the Ukraine, and political concessions from the Ukrainian side. And with that you have to be very careful, because in Ukraine’s information space is created such visibility that the Ukrainian government does not do anything, she had forgotten his people, and Russia is demanding political concessions only. I am strongly opposed to change people make political concessions, which will hit the interests of the entire state. During that died thousands of Ukrainians.
Vitaly Portnikov: Then it turns out that these people may be in prison indefinitely?
Yuri Yatsenko: I think we should use this moment. Human rights – a universal value for the civilized world, and no matter where they were violated. Russia – a signatory to many international human rights treaties. It is necessary to communicate to the international community that should be punished for it. Crimes should be punished. And if we find a way to popularize the subject, reports it to the international community, then we can even win, because Russia will be applied to the greater of sanctions and pressure.
Vitaly Portnikov: Being in prison, you communicated with Russian human rights activists, they tried to help you?
Yuri Yatsenko: Unfortunately, no. When I was in prison, I was in general no one came, but my lawyer. Perhaps this is due to the fact that I was in Belgorod, and the majority of public observers are located in Moscow. And it did not add me strength.
Vitaly Portnikov: And after you have tried to involve the release of Russian human rights mechanisms in their activities?
Yuri Yatsenko: Even in your studio, I was with Zoe light . There is a Russian non-governmental organizations that are trying to do something to help, but they are too weak in Russia. Even Public supervisory commissions the Russian government is trying to make the most loyal to him and even destroy, that is to make formal.
Vitaly Portnikov: That is to count on the society, in this case it is not necessary?
Yuri Yatsenko: It is not necessary, because the company believes the TV and on the TV show that is beneficial power. Society there is little hope, except that the human rights defenders.
Vitaly Portnikov: How Ukrainian government thinks about liberation? It’s also a very important issue.
Yuri Yatsenko: This is a big problem, because the majority of people detained on political grounds against which the fabricated cases are residents of the Crimea, the Crimean Tatars, and they have nowhere to return to. Suppose they are released, brought to Ukraine – where they live? It is not required by law. In Ukraine, for they have no social security, no legal notion that this political prisoners, people, victims of political repression. They have nowhere to live, no rehabilitation, no livelihood.
It should be regulated already on the legislative level, to create a law or make changes to other laws. Well, I have a house in Lviv, family, loved ones, I’m back and I live here, as he lived. And what do the rest – where to live it, to which have at least the first time? This issue was not resolved.
When he returned Gennady Afanasiev , with him it had the same problem. She decided to rather ambiguous, because the housing found, but it is not in the property, he and his family just uses it. If you come back a few more people, where they settle? I do not know any body who thinks about it, taking some action. I absolutely responsibly say in this regard nothing is done.
Vitaly Portnikov: That is actually the job of the state to the prisoner ends at the moment when it is released?
Yuri Yatsenko: Until – yes, unfortunately. Maybe it will be decided once situationally, but so far there are no guarantees.
Vitaly Portnikov: But people may need not only for housing and work. As your experience shows, they may need medical attention (I’m not talking about that need psychological support). People come from a Russian prison is not very healthy – to put it mildly, not a resort.
Yuri Yatsenko: Theoretically, under the law, everyone can provide medical care, but for the rehabilitation of this population is not provided.
Vitaly Portnikov: If we talk about the structures created in recent years, you can say that the government is now trying to develop some kind of system that will allow to hope that Ukrainian citizens will be released? In addition to public pressure, in addition to human rights, how you regard yourself interstate dialogue?
Yuri Yatsenko: I spoke to the president through the governor of Lviv region. I spoke to Pavel Klimkinwith a request to join forces organizations that deal with political prisoners, to hear them, to be in touch with them because there was not a single communication center. Requests, and my defenders were heard, and Klimkin in early September created a platform with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. They include civil society organizations of Crimea the SOS, the SOS euromaidan, Ukrainian Helsinki Group, Crimean Tatar resource center. It is now the competent representatives of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, fortunately, every day on the links. If you need to make some kind of statement about the detention of someone or about torture used to someone, it’s done, and they listen. In addition, once a month we are going in the Foreign Ministry with Minister Klimkin, Gerashchenko and solve the most complex issues.
Vitaly Portnikov: It is possible to solve them?
Yuri Yatsenko: There is an opportunity to discuss them, to bring … And review while there, but it should not be just a comment on a particular problem – should be made system solution for the creation of a body that will be responsible for this, to have the resources, the action plan, the strategy , implement it. After the release of political prisoners – is not only talks between the presidents, not only in Minsk talks or negotiations between the secret services, it is also the daily work with lawyers, relatives and with international organizations, case analysis, strategy development. It is not.
Vitaly Portnikov: By the way, can help in this case, contact with relatives? I have seen many people who have loved ones are imprisoned in Russia, and they are hoping that they will be released. I think these people are willing to grasp at any straw.
Yuri Yatsenko: Yes, these people are the most pro-active in this regard. Need a system work, you need a responsible authority. There is a Ministry of Foreign Affairs has authorized the president, but they still have a lot of jobs and businesses. Release of political prisoners, perhaps, one of the first places, but this is not the main task. They can not dedicate all his time to address this issue.
Vitaly Portnikov: Do you think that Ukrainian citizens better not to go to Russia. It is talking about it almost from the beginning of the conflict, but people go in large numbers.
Yuri Yatsenko: These people should realize that they fall into the danger zone. The state’s task – to bring to them the information. Everyone admits that something can happen, but he, like me, rely on the fact that the probability of arrest is very small with him. Nevertheless, it exists. Since we were strongly associated with the Russian economic and family ties, people go ahead and risk. The problem of Ukraine and the international community – to provide security there.
Vitaly Portnikov: How can the Ukraine to ensure there is security? When a person crosses the border, it is responsible for its safety has only the Russian Federation.
Yuri Yatsenko: They are not all-powerful. Even their internal organs are very powerful, but not omnipotent. If effectively at the international level, if sanctions by the international community has been tightened, that our citizens would not be detained. Moreover, if it was not carried out the policy, which is carried out, to deliver to the world of offenses on the part of the Russian authorities in relation to the Ukrainian citizens, the political prisoners would be a lot more. 40 people – a lot, but if it were not punished Russia, they would be much more.
Vitaly Portnikov: How is it that since your release so increased the number of detainees?
Yuri Yatsenko: I think Putin saw the effectiveness of the plan – the blackmail by the Ukrainian authorities of hostage-taking. The Ukrainian media space to create a picture that the government does not protect its own, she threw them. This is one of the ways to destabilize the situation in Ukraine and one of the possibilities for trade for political concessions.
Vitaly Portnikov: You’re from the city – obviously, we can say that this was also one of the motivations of your detention? Like place of birth and residence permit in the passport – it has a certain additional element of risk, and yet is not so important where you come from?
Yuri Yatsenko: This is important. If you’re from the city, you have to somehow automatically banned from Russia in the “right sector”. And if you’re from the “Right Sector”, then you are specially trained, you’re a spy, saboteur. When I went into the chamber to the criminals who were sentenced to terms of more than ten years for serious crimes, they were afraid of me because I’m from the city, and my business is the FSB. They asked: counterintelligence FSB you from the lions? In this society, even so, you can get the respect … And they wonder what you look like a normal person, hang out … It has changed remarkably from consciousness.
Vitaly Portnikov: How should look like in the minds of people from the city recidivist?
Yuri Yatsenko: A man from the city – a trained agent. One inmate even called me “Agent Smith” – supposedly taught me the Americans. Every day I told the Americans, that they took the second floor of the SBU in Ukraine. I talked about it with the head of the detention center, with the chief of prison regime. They were interesting to talk to me on the subject of how we Yarosh all controls along with the Americans. It was funny, it puts me in the mood, but it is absurd.
Vitaly Portnikov: You were in Belgorod, and the city is a few kilometers from Kharkov. Ukraine next, it is not something that some Russian provinces, where only first-hand knowledge about Ukraine.
Yuri Yatsenko: That Ukraine, but the TV that always tells the truth. My boss was a detention center in Lviv in December 2013. I asked him, you saw there the Nazis? He said no, normal city, beautiful. The rest of my superiors did not believe it was a holy sure I specially trained Yarosh. I’m talking about the “right sector” do not know anything, except that they were on the Maidan, I do not even know exactly who enters there.
Vitaly Portnikov: And how do you feel: this is a saving faith or desire to hide behind this television information to justify the action in relation to you? Because then it is clear that they are doing – they do not violate the laws, protect the homeland.
Yuri Yatsenko: FSB representatives, in my opinion, knows objective picture. They knew why they caught me, who I am. And representatives of the prison, which efesbeshniki said I was a dangerous man and the agent is not persuaded that if the FSB said, so it is. And criminals TV explained who these people from the city: if I engaged in counter-intelligence, the FSB, then I am not a simple man.
Vitaly Portnikov: That is to say that in Russian society, the myth is so massive support from the one who protects, before whom the guard?
Yuri Yatsenko: They have created a myth, but now themselves believe in it, and convince themselves. It was interesting as a phenomenon.
Vitaly Portnikov: This is different from the Ukrainian consciousness – is not so believe in television?
Yuri Yatsenko: In Ukraine, believe in television, but we have even greater variety of opinions. TV influences, but not as much as in Russia. The Russians are coming to the city and are surprised that they do not attack, they can even talk in Russian. My neighbor from the first floor all life speaks in Russian. But no one did not believe me.
Vitaly Portnikov: Do you believe it will be possible to release people who are now in Russian prisons?
Yuri Yatsenko: I believe. I think many will be released in the next few years, they will not sit until the end of his crazy time. This policy, it is a struggle.
Popularization of help topics for political prisoners is growing. When I came back from Russia, I think, Poroshenko President did not even know about me, although I was listed officially in the Foreign Ministry as a political prisoner. A year later, the campaign for the release of political prisoners and for Afanasiev Soloshenko already flew the presidential plane. I think this is the result of the struggle of social organizations and the popularization of this subject – it has become the number one topic for the Ukrainian state. Every week, the president makes a relevant statement about political prisoners, at each meeting Ukrainian delegation to raise this issue, and it’s very good.
Sourse, 14/05/2017
