ATO Zone: with a whip or carrot

The program “Face-to-event” to “Radio Liberty” involved just returned from the east Ukrainian human rights activists Tatyana Lokshina (the HRW, Moscow), Maria Tomak (Center for Civil Liberties, Kiev), Andrei Yurov (member of the Presidential Human Rights Council in Russia) and Anastasia Stanko (journalist Hromadske.TV, Ukraine). Leading Kristina Gorelik.

Kristina Gorelik: Over the weekend, the Ukrainian military had moved to the east of the country were occupied strategically important towns like Slavyansk and Kramatorsk. Separatists retreat, leaving the field of hostages and prisoners. How does the change of military power in the cities, which pass under the control of the other side? Do yourself are Ukrainian military as well as behaved separatists from the so-called Donetsk and Luhansk People’s Republic? Away I just returned from the zone ATO Tatyana Lokshina, “Human Rights Watch” and Mariya Tomak, the Center for Civil Liberties, Kiev, and Anastasia Stanko, a journalist from Kiev, Hromadske.TV, which was taken hostage in Lugansk, and a member presidential human Rights Council Andrei Yurov, a spokesman for the Russian side of the joint mission of human rights activists in Ukraine.

Mary, you have just returned to Kiev from Krasny Liman and Kharkov. In the Red Liman was fired railway hospital and there were heard some, especially in the Russian press, terrible figures that nearly 25 hostages were shot. What have you learned as a result of what is happening in this village now?

Mariya Tomak: I have to say first of all, briefly, that this mission came at the initiative of the Ukrainian and Russian human rights activists. I think it is very important joint visits to such a point where there are similar situations which are interpreted by different parties in very different ways.

As for the Red Lyman, the numbers were not only shot 25, but 150. I recall that Vladimir Putin said in an interview about the shooting of the wounded as an established fact, it is now the interview is on the presidential website. I would not call it a loud word “investigation” because we were able to spend only half a day and mingle with a small number of people, to call it an investigation, but nevertheless. We talked with the chief physician of the railway hospital, where according to the Russian media took this same shot. Chief physician of us to make sure that no executions had, but nevertheless really mortar shelling took the hospital, and there is reason to believe that it was produced by the Ukrainian side. These bases have any of the words again, the head physician of the hospital.

The next day he had to talk with the Ukrainian military, which was disbanded in the form of special forces of Ukraine “Golden Eagle”. I remind you that the special unit “Berkut” just to take an active part in the various stages of acceleration of Maidan in Kiev and other cities. So, it was disbanded, and all aware of this, this fact is not hidden, that these people, including taking part in the anti-terrorist operation.

Supposedly representative of Ukrainian forces in the form of “Berkut” even showed him a map on which the hospital was marked as “separatists hospital.” We have until the end can not say who made the shelling, but judging by the words of the head physician, we can assume that it was the Ukrainian side, but no shooting, I must emphasize, it was not.

Again, according to him, the next day, the security forces were actually in the hospital, but they made a detour, so to speak, in front was a doctor, and they followed him, went through the wards, but did not check any documents or medical records of anyone not taken out and there were no arrests. In any case, this episode of the calling, and should be investigated. There can not be any, I think, different opinions in this sense.

The report that we have completed today with Russian human rights activists, makes it very clear that we demand an investigation. But, of course, I must stress that this is not only far from the scene to investigate.

We have a lot of cases where there is reason to believe that the militants was accomplished shelling of residential areas, the shelling of civilians. Our colleague from Lugansk introduced just yesterday its own investigation of such cases. He says judging by his investigation that the shelling was carried out by militants. Two minutes later, the journalists “Life News” came after the shelling, filmed it all and is presented as “arbitrary Ukrainian fascists.” In such a war, it seems to me, to the point where the media resource plays a role, there is a need to conduct a very profound investigations as to what actually happened.

Kristina Gorelik: Tatyana, you too have just returned from Ukraine, where even visited in Kramatorsk, and, as I understand it, were there at the very moment (at the weekend), when the separatists were leaving Slavyansk Donetsk. Much if people were scared? What’s left behind the separatists?

Tatyana Lokshina: Together with a colleague from the Human Rights Center “Memorial” were not only in Kramatorsk, not so much in Kramatorsk, and were primarily in Lugansk and in the village of Lugano, where July 2 there was an air strike on two villages were victims of among the civilian population, were very serious damage. We have documented this situation in some detail, I can tell the story separately.

With regard to what is happening in Kramatorsk. We went there because the situation in Kramatorsk is a serious concern. It was a lot of posts, including in the media that in Kramatorsk was a massacre, a humanitarian disaster, a serious loss of life, serious destruction. What we saw in Kramatorsk? City in a completely normal state, at least outwardly. In the city, only one large apartment building, apartment, house mnogopodezdny really very badly damaged, corrupted, according to the funnels, judging by what we saw artillery.

What does it mean badly damaged? This means that one of the entrances, there is really almost all the apartments are divided with regard to the other entrances, then too many apartments are significantly damaged.

Kristina Gorelik: That is, it is not clear whether there is a victim?

Tatyana Lokshina: Right. We interviewed people living in this house, I must say that there are very few people left, just one person at each entrance, but we were told unequivocally: no, thank God, no one was killed. How can it be?

Maybe people living in Kramatorsk – it’s right next to the Slavonic, which constantly hear the sound of gunfire, which continually sees the militias, feel that they are at war. And so those who could leave, all of them have already left. And by that time, when there was the fire in the house there were very few people. Someone lay on the floor, someone went in his bath, we are told, in general, is lucky. And it is this most probably a prime example of serious damage in the city of Kramatorsk.

Kristina Gorelik: It is not clear by whom, who made the shelling or you have already found out?

Tatyana Lokshina: It is assumed that this Ukrainian forces. Again, I like Maria 100% I do not presume to say, but presumably there is reason to believe that this Ukrainian forces. Near there, very close the separatist checkpoint and with a high probability, wanted to destroy the separatist checkpoint, got into the house. Was it returned fire, that is, if they fired at the moment, there is near Ukrainian military base just 10 kilometers away, there Craciun fired at that moment with the separatist position, I can not say. The people with whom we spoke, we asked them this question, they said, no, no, it was quiet, and then it started. Indeed, when it comes to armed conflict, and I emphasize – our organization “Human Rights Watch” has concluded more than a week ago, that we are talking about an armed conflict not of an international character, the laws of war apply, applicable international humanitarian law. And when it comes to the laws of war, there are certain total ban – a ban on the hostage-taking, on the abuse of the tribe. And we have documented such violations documented such practices on the part of the militia. Of course, this must end, the perpetrators must be punished.

Kristina Gorelik: With us in touch Ukrainian journalist from Kiev Anastasia Stanko, who just visited in this captivity. You also tell us that you have documented, let her hear what she suffered enough. Please tell us how it happened, exactly where you were taken hostage, where and how to keep that demanded what they wanted and how to let go.

Anastasia Stanko: It was all very strange. We tried to get an official accreditation LC 5 days, we tried to get it through the press service, while still in Kiev, we have tried through local journalists in Luhansk, through the journalists who were there and worked on the accreditation, but we did not work consistently. We were told that on Monday can be obtained. On Monday we arrived in Lugansk. And we contacted through a friend, we went to the machines that are safe, we learned through a friend of his friends, that there is among the militias SMERSH, this one of the security organizations, they can give us accreditation. That is, they were friends of our friends. They first said that they will do the accreditation, then said it was a long time, they first have to tinker, there will be two cars with flashing lights, with security, that is, we will be safe. Then they called back and said that it will cost money – 1800 hryvnia costs for security and another thousand will cost petrol.

Kristina Gorelik: How much, if translated into Russian money?

Anastasia Stanko: I do not know, 4,000 rubles, if I’m not mistaken. That is a little money, but still. Indeed two cars with flashing lights arrived, we were told our friends that they are serious people that everything will be fine, we can all be removed. One machine was the “Toyota” in Lugansk already do not drive these cars because they were either taken away, took the LC, or hid themselves in order not to have taken away. There’s only a “penny” or the Chinese are very cheap. We got in the car, we were told that everything will be fine, we paid the money. We just went from Lugansk and on the way to the village Lugansk we overtook beads armor, he came out of five people with Kalashnikovs, with St. George ribbons. Then it seemed to me that all of us will be shot in this place, because it was the field everywhere. But they immediately took the documents put in beads on the floor, Crews covered head to not see where we were going. We do not explain anything, why we take what happened. They said that we have no accreditation – that’s all. We have said that we are your people going, we had an agreement, they promised us with them. They said that they do not care. They introduced the NKVD, that is, the security service Bolotov, LC. As we later learned, in Lugansk there are approximately 7 criminal groups that are not subordinate to one another. That is Bolotovu others do not obey. These people immediately took us to the basement, we have not seen these Olimpiyki where we are. We were in the cellar. Then came the commander of the NKVD began to threaten, curse words, said that we are here because we are journalists enemy countries and all, here is the explanation. We did not know that we wrap around a spy,

Kristina Gorelik: Tanya, you’ll want to supplement that comes to the hostages?

Tatyana Lokshina: Very terrible situation. Unfortunately, quite typical for the region. I just want to repeat once again that in terms of the laws of war, from the standpoint of international humanitarian law that’s it, under any circumstances, the conflicting parties should not be allowed. On the other hand, there is the problem of attacks on human settlements, where the civilian population.

Kristina Gorelik: And on both sides, I want to see.

Tatyana Lokshina: It is much more difficult to draw definitive conclusions on the reason that you need to have the fullness of all the information. For example, if the strikes at the hospital, and the hospital is not militias – is what Mary told, this is in any case can not be – it’s a foul. If strikes the locality, for example, through the village, which at this time are combatants, there are representatives of the warring parties, who are also firing. Civilians are under attack? Yes, they find themselves. Of course, every human life is precious, every destruction – it’s a terrible tragedy, people lose their loved ones, people are losing their homes. But from the standpoint of international humanitarian law, the shelling of the village from which the combatants are firing, it is valid. And so, when you study this kind of cases, you the truth, it is very important to know: What used weapons, there were representatives of a belligerent at a certain point, and so on – that’s all the key moments. Returning to the militants out of the Slavic through Kramatorsk, together with my colleague, to be honest, at first did not understand what was happening, because we moved around Kramatorsk, searched there damaged houses, talked to people, we were able to get an idea about which is very much in the press and blog overstate the devastation that had been in Kramatorsk.

Kristina Gorelik: That is misinformation was frank.

Tatyana Lokshina: Yes, misinformation. In general, unfortunately, this war is different somehow just incredible background information. I would say that the information war is harder than the actual fighting – such a strange situation. At some point, we just saw a group of militiamen, 5 people, 10 people, 20 people who walked from the Slavyansk. And we did not understand what was happening, they were very excited, they were very angry. Next to us began to appear relatively small, up to 20 people – it is quite large, some smaller, some larger groups of armed militias. They have paid no attention, but quite desperately cursing, still, there was a mat-peremat. It was evident that they were something very inflated, somewhat dissatisfied. But we did not understand anything. Us it was time to leave, We got into the car and drove out of the Kramatorsk. Approaching the militia checkpoint at the exit from Kramatorsk, here we have seen the column. I can not say that it was a large column, but it is quite solid.

Kristina Gorelik: What about the people?

Tatyana Lokshina: I’m afraid to cheat, there were open trucks with militiamen were mortars. Before us is right on the highway, on the road movement of armored vehicles were traces of fresh, they probably exported. We still do not understand what is happening, because nowhere in the news, no one expected. Just driving through the post, it turned out that one of the volunteers who was on duty, he knows our driver. He asked, and he replied that Slavyansk deposited and then all obscene. And here we realized what was happening. Of course, I must once again emphasize that this background information, with an incredible amount of misinformation wave is very important to see with their own eyes.

Kristina Gorelik: You said – Slavyansk delivered. Just yesterday, late at night on the Security Council of Ukraine has officially announced that they will completely block the Donetsk and Luhansk in order to force the separatists to lay down their weapons. In my opinion, it should have human rights and cause great concern. Because Lugansk – this is one of the largest cities in the administrative, it is among the top ten, in my opinion, the major cities, there are more than 400 thousand inhabitants, Donetsk in the top five in terms of population, there are nearly a million people. If they completely blocked the Ukrainian military town, then, in my opinion, it could be from a humanitarian point of view, a disaster.

Tatyana Lokshina: In this situation, it is essential to give the opportunity to go to the civilian population.

Kristina Gorelik: You mean a humanitarian corridor?

Tatyana Lokshina: I mean the normal functional humanitarian corridor to those people who want to go out, can get out there.

Kristina Gorelik: Regarding the humanitarian corridor as some conversations!

Tatyana Lokshina: For a long time there was a speech about a humanitarian corridor from the Slavic. I want to believe that people who want to quit will be adequate opportunity. From the point of view of the laws of war, both sides are obliged to do everything in their power in order to reduce the risk to civilians. And it was with this appeal we are now appealing to the Ukrainian authorities.

Mariya Tomak: I would like a little bit to say about the humanitarian corridor. In fact, talking about it for a long time already underway, the president does not just talk about it. According to just Ukrainian antiterrorist center is not possible now, this corridor because of the militants. They argue that it is possible to block the militants to create this corridor. Although I must say that every day I observe their colleagues, activists in the east of Ukraine, which literally encircle the thresholds of various departments of the presidential administration, foster the people’s deputies, ministers, this call to provide the most reliable and safe evacuation. But it is very difficult. Now we have developed with colleagues roadmap for immigrants, where a lot is devoted to instructions on how to leave, because it is very difficult. We know that that the male population simply refused to release them immediately mobilized and sent to dig trenches in the Slavic. That is, it is problematic and difficult question. I’m here, I want a little bit of terminology. From our point of view, I’m talking about the Ukrainian activists, we are not talking about the militias, but the militants and terrorists, is so called people who take hostages, who used to torture him. Thank God, I am very pleased that my colleague, Nastya, they cost more or less humane, but I heard from people just horror stories, including the girls. We do not call these people’s militias, we call them insurgents or terrorists. And also, of course, this conflict is not intrinsic to us, although, of course, no one would argue that if there were no internal database, then, of course, it would be impossible to wake this dragon, but, of course, if there were no Russian arms supplies that have, I think, no doubt, if n were subversive groups, in the end, we know the biography of arrow, just thanks to the Russian human rights defenders, in particular, the “Memorial”, we know it biography Chechnya times where he was involved in the kidnapping, his connection with the GRU, if I’m not mistaken. Of course, there is a component of the internal Ukrainian, but if the situation did not use in the Kremlin, of course, did not happen. Further consequences may be, of course, very scary, we also monitor the situation. Still, it is very important that our Russian colleagues have experience in Chechnya, because we strongly consolidating them. Today we had a meeting with Aleksandrom Cherkasovym, who knows a lot about how to be in a hostage situation, we can not even assume, how many of them, from 200 to 500 according to various sources, it is important to know and understand. Of course, documenting what is already happening. Of course, the Ukrainian human rights defenders and activists will travel to the ATO area to collect all sorts of evidence, do interviews, in-depth interviews, document what was going on, try to understand what really happened there. This clarification about terminology, it seems to me important.

Kristina Gorelik: With regard to terminology, I can note that given the view of Mary, when we talked about the shooting in the Red Liman in the hospital, the same terminology sounded from just pro-Russian people, those who support the militias in eastern Ukraine. Again, as to whether Russia is directly takes part in this – this case the investigating authorities. Where did the military equipment, what it is, I hope that all this will be investigated properly.

Tatyana Lokshina: All this, of course, should be investigated.

Kristina Gorelik: Regarding the figures, Mary said – from 200 to 500 hostages, these figures, I believe you should immediately check the human rights defenders. You yourself, as I understand it, studied the history of the hostages, you were some kind of statistics or specific stories you collected?

Tatyana Lokshina: We collected specific stories. “Human Rights Watch” in general the average is not Statistics. We spoke somewhere with a dozen people who have experienced it the hard way, which is forcibly held, some of them are actually applied maltreatment. This situation is quite ugly. Here clearly the laws of war, we are told: such practices are unacceptable, all the perpetrators should be punished.

Kristina Gorelik: contact us by phone Andrey Yurov, who represents the Russian side of the joint mission of human rights in Ukraine. Andrei, here we are now discussing, and Tatyana Lokshina and Mariya Tomak just returned from ATO area, we argue whether the Ukrainian military conduct themselves as well as behaved separatists. I can not help but notice that recently you were attacked, whether it is an attack that you actively participate in the monitoring of human rights violations linked to the Ukraine?

Andrey Yurov: I can not say whether it is connected with or associated with something else. I would not want to produce different conjectures. The only thing that I would like to say straight away that my information about what is happening in the east, is not enough. I think Maria and Tatiana have a much more complete information, the more so because I know them well and have full confidence in them as professionals. So, I think that if there’s something to say, I can say that probably a lot of what they say – it’s a fact. Very serious concern, a very serious suspicions. It is very difficult to judge, it was true or not. I have only one problem with all of this, it has less to do with actual Ukrainian military, but as with the general precedent for similar anti-terrorism operations. The question is, there must be some kind of an international standard, if we are talking about police operations. And if it is an operation with the use of the army, then it is not very clear, it is recognized whether the other party at least face the internal conflict, whether acting humanitarian law and so on. Here there are very difficult moments. I do not know how manage to keep the situation in Ukraine, shall we say, more or less decent, as there are cases of mass deaths of civilians during all these events, and so on. But overall, I think this should be a cause for serious analysis at the international level. That is, apparently, in these operations, I am afraid that this is not the last case in the territory of greater Europe, the OSCE area, we need to understand how such anti-terrorist operations should be carried out, whether the application is admissible armed forces, is it permissible to use heavy artillery, whether the application is admissible aviation. You know that as soon as the application starts aviation or artillery, it can not be a point, civilians are killed. If we talk about the police operation, then the most that can be used – BTR. There are very serious concerns me. I emphasize: I can not really accurately assess how well and correctly operated Ukrainian army, but the victims could not be among the civilian population, when such means are used.

Kristina Gorelik: Andrew, tomorrow, as I understand it, will be meeting Russian human rights activists, will probably prepare some sort of report or will agree on how you will continue to act, it seems to me, especially in the provision or organization of a humanitarian corridor, given that about what we said at the beginning of the transfer, Ukraine declares that will be completely blocked shortly Donetsk and Lugansk.

Andrey Yurov: These are very serious questions. I think they need to be discussed together. All these discussions should be both apart, I mean the Ukrainian and Russian human rights activists and, of course, together. Because we must have a balanced common position, I think that only in this way we can work out some kind of independent, balanced and constructive solutions.

Kristina Gorelik: Andrew, what you think is the main task is to discuss at this meeting?

Andrey Yurov: Now For me, honestly, the most important thing to understand what is happening and what are the threats to the civilian population in the coming days and weeks. Because the situation has changed a lot, I realize that I’m not really have any information, do not quite understand that now in connection with the blocking of Donetsk in Donetsk will take place. This is a huge city, and we understand that a military operation in a big city – it’s a dangerous thing for the civilians. The problem is that this group includes people who are much more experienced than I, I mean the people who were involved in monitoring the different names of armed conflict. I have experience of armed conflict it has never been in a period of hot conflict, I never did. In this sense, I feel that I lack the professionalism, often lack easy understanding,

Kristina Gorelik: Tatyana Lokshina just have such experience, including the Chechen campaign. Tatiana, and whether itself the Ukrainian military are the same as the separatists of the so-called Donetsk and Luhansk People’s Republic?

Tatyana Lokshina: This is my second trip to the east of Ukraine, the first time I was there a month ago, of course, very important that I have the opportunity to compare, as it was then and as it is now. Over the past month, the situation is very much worse situation for the civilian population in the first place. I see.

Kristina Gorelik: People are scared or not?

Tatyana Lokshina: People wildly frightened. Moreover, if a month ago you were talking to people who have heard often enough pretentious political speech as supporters of the DNI and LC, and opponents, at the moment, with a few exceptions, the people say: My God, if only it was all over. Let this be the DNI, let it be Ukraine, Russia let it be, just be here to shoot finally stopped. And now, this is probably the dominant story – that it settled down to stop shooting. Of course, when we say it is an armed conflict or not, “Human Rights Watch” at this stage there is no doubt about it. We are talking about a military operation scale of the territory which was controlled and now control the militias.

Kristina Gorelik: You call this internal conflict, Mary calls confidently, that Russia is involved.

Tatyana Lokshina: We compare it with what it was in South Ossetia and Georgia in 2008, where the situation was crystal clear, there is the conflict really participate on the side of Russia in South Ossetia, there was part of 58 the army, entered the Russian troops. Where Russian troops, that is officially the Russian side in this war is not involved. Yes, of course, as they say Maria, there is every reason to believe that there are fighting volunteers from Russia, one of the volunteers did not stop.

Kristina Gorelik: On the border or in captivity do not take?

Tatyana Lokshina: They are able to somehow get through the border, the border with the Ukrainian side leaky, as we know, these opportunities they find. On the Russian side, too, they do not interfere with all evidence. Moreover, according to the Russian Criminal Code, mercenary – it is a criminal offense, which is a very serious offense. And if in Russia, in Moscow there are points of recruiting volunteers to the east of Ukraine, it would seem, to find these people very easily. Do not do it no one, authorities condone this. Plus, there is the situation with the weapon, which one way or another goes from Russia to Ukraine, which is already too can not be denied. That is the role of Russia is, of course, plays, but the official and full belligerent, of course, in this conflict, Russia is not. As for the practice, Now the most important thing – is that the Ukrainian authorities and, in fact, the Ukrainian military, I use the word “war” as applied and the army and the National Guard under, and to volunteer battalion, did not think that if the militias do this, this, this is then they can do it too. Here it is by no means impossible. I also want to emphasize, with regard to the practice of arbitrary arrests, in fact Ukrainian forces to this very involved. In particular, their prayers for some time disappeared from the point of view of international law is called the forced disappearance of the journalists when they took Russian journalists is very sensational story to journalists “Life News” reporter is delayed, delayed Ukrainian forces, then it disappears, no one does not know where he is, his editors did not know where he is, his family did not know where he is, it is clearly somewhere contain him do not allow lawyers, and he finds himself in a limbo. So do not. This is the loudest, most known history. For example, we documented the situation with the journalist DNI, so it was called, who worked for the Donetsk People’s Republic, it has traveled to Slavyansk, if there were any fighting, he filmed immediately spread in the internet, it was the press -card, it says “journalist DNR” by name Larionov, who disappeared after his witnesses detained at the Ukrainian office near Kramatorsk and it is not about two months. I spoke to his mother, I spoke to his wife, of course, they were in a terrible state, it took a very long time, no information, absolutely nothing is clear. Indeed, his friends had witnessed had witnessed his arrest. You can do such a thing? In no case can not be. As for the attacks on the hospital – it is prohibited. With regard to the destruction of human settlements and the victims of human settlements, when there was something that happened on July 2 in the village of Lugano, the Ukrainian authorities, if I’m not mistaken, first said that the airstrike was, but it was a Russian airstrike. Because they said that it was not an airstrike, and that militia shelled the village of “Grad”. We were there any traces of fire “Grad” we have not found, we suggest that militia shelled the village, next to which their own office, where they control everything or is it a Russian plane struck the blow though the village is 15 kilometers from the Russian border, it is difficult to assume, to put it mildly. Indeed the people with whom we spoke told us how they saw the plane. I specifically asked, the aircraft was flying low? They said no. And there are not very far militia checkpoint. I would say that it is very likely that the pilot is not reduced, because it is afraid of MANPADS, because he is afraid that he will bring down, and knocked already quite a lot, unfortunately, Ukrainian aircraft, the pilots are really afraid of, and he’s just bad falls . If we talk about the village Lugansk, there ruined street, not all destroyed by the street, but with serious destruction, killing two people, the streets of Moscow – Donbass. It is 800 meters from the post in Kondrashovke, which can be regarded as the outskirts of the village of Lugansk, there is not even such a separate village on the map. The terrible condition Ostrovsky st, 9 houses suffered terribly, 2 more houses damaged, killing 9 people. Pilot could miss? Could. This must be investigated. All the time that we were there, we have not seen on any street or on the other street, or in the village Lugansk nor Kondrashovke single militiaman, except for those who were on duty and at a distance. Can I completely exclude the presence of militias there at the moment of impact on July 2? I can not, I did not have at the time of impact. The people with whom we spoke, we were told that no, no militias were not there. All spoke about the plane, all told about the bombings, about how their loved ones died. Of course, all this is very scary. And this requires immediate investigation, because most likely it is a disproportionate operation of random strikes. Ukrainian authorities need to understand what happened and how it happened that all these people died. nor on the other street, or in the village Lugansk nor Kondrashovke single militiaman, except for those who were on duty and at a distance. Can I completely exclude the presence of militias there at the moment of impact on July 2? I can not, I did not have at the time of impact. The people with whom we spoke, we were told that no, no militias were not there. All spoke about the plane, all told about the bombings, about how their loved ones died. Of course, all this is very scary. And this requires immediate investigation, because most likely it is a disproportionate operation of random strikes. Ukrainian authorities need to understand what happened and how it happened that all these people died. nor on the other street, or in the village Lugansk nor Kondrashovke single militiaman, except for those who were on duty and at a distance. Can I completely exclude the presence of militias there at the moment of impact on July 2? I can not, I did not have at the time of impact. The people with whom we spoke, we were told that no, no militias were not there. All spoke about the plane, all told about the bombings, about how their loved ones died. Of course, all this is very scary. And this requires immediate investigation, because most likely it is a disproportionate operation of random strikes. Ukrainian authorities need to understand what happened and how it happened that all these people died. Can I completely exclude the presence of militias there at the moment of impact on July 2? I can not, I did not have at the time of impact. The people with whom we spoke, we were told that no, no militias were not there. All spoke about the plane, all told about the bombings, about how their loved ones died. Of course, all this is very scary. And this requires immediate investigation, because most likely it is a disproportionate operation of random strikes. Ukrainian authorities need to understand what happened and how it happened that all these people died. Can I completely exclude the presence of militias there at the moment of impact on July 2? I can not, I did not have at the time of impact. The people with whom we spoke, we were told that no, no militias were not there. All spoke about the plane, all told about the bombings, about how their loved ones died. Of course, all this is very scary. And this requires immediate investigation, because most likely it is a disproportionate operation of random strikes. Ukrainian authorities need to understand what happened and how it happened that all these people died. how their loved ones died. Of course, all this is very scary. And this requires immediate investigation, because most likely it is a disproportionate operation of random strikes. Ukrainian authorities need to understand what happened and how it happened that all these people died. how their loved ones died. Of course, all this is very scary. And this requires immediate investigation, because most likely it is a disproportionate operation of random strikes. Ukrainian authorities need to understand what happened and how it happened that all these people died.

Kristina Gorelik: But you’re in a report, the report will?

Tatyana Lokshina: In the village of Lugansk we have previously unsubscribed, and said that an investigation is absolutely necessary here. But, of course, we are very excited for what is now happening in the cities of Donetsk and Lugansk. Donetsk city of one million, which is by some miracle the mayor kept in an absolutely good condition all the time, when there are boundaries that happened in Donetsk was a normal life. Just scary to think about what will happen today. Of course, all the conditions for the civilian population should be created to allow people to leave the city, if the city is besieged. At the same time, I agree with Mary, we understand that it is not only the Ukrainian authorities have something here to provide.

Kristina Gorelik: Anastasia, probably very difficult to maintain objectivity as a journalist, that is, you are on the one hand must be the same as Tatyana Lokshina ride, see the violations, which the party and the other party have been made to fix them, and talk about this. How do you manage and whether the objective to comply with, or do you sometimes catch yourself thinking that you are very sharply criticizing Russia, for example, for the fact that it interferes in the affairs of Ukraine, shall we say?

Anastasia Stanko: I’d say that you can not properly monitor the Ukrainian journalists. I absolutely agree with every word of Tatiana. When this situation occurs Kondrashovke, we were still sitting in the basement, but when we were released, the Russian journalists asked us, you know that people were killed in Kondrashovke, you know what happened? No, we did not know, because we were in the basement with no, no phone, no nothing, we can not know anything. But I will say that I asked many times of so-called militias, so they allowed me to remove the material that I have them to offer such an option, let us we will remove material that will send him to Kiev, you look at how it came out, because they do not trust us and we’ll sit in the cellar. And if we are lied to, you can continue to do to us whatever you want. But they did not agree to this. I as a journalist is very important, I was lucky, I took off Ukrainian army near Lugansk, as the people are fighting with one hand what they think, whether they shoot in the city or not. On the part of Lugansk Ukrainian journalists practically can not work, they are not given accreditation. The militia, which we kept, I do not want to call the militia, to be honest, a normal word – separatists, because the militia – a militia, and when both have captured people with weapons – it’s something else. They do not give accreditation to Ukrainian journalists, virtually none of the Ukrainian journalists can not work there. Maybe we are not always right, I am sure that we are not always right. For example, Kondrashovkoy I too, like Tatiana, do not know what happened there. I also talked to people who live in Lugansk, who live there, they told me that yes, I have lost a son, my wife died, and I went to the militia. But the fly if there was a plane or a “Grad” I do not know, I can not go there. If I do not see with my own eyes, I actually can not say anything, and many of my colleagues can not say. A terrible situation, you know nothing, nothing you can prove some people who live in Luhansk, they are afraid to even call to tell us what’s going on. They are afraid that their voice is recognized, and then they, too, will be put in the cellar or something else. Just in Luhansk all in a state of terror. They have also not for the militia, nor for the army, they are afraid that they are not killed. If they want to come the army, because it live too, when a lot of armed men on the streets. Two cases were, when one person was shot on the streets, and the second was shot in the line at the supermarket, because it did not give place. People in this, too, can not live. But on the other hand, they are afraid that the army would go and shoot them all, they are also talking about it. And it’s all thanks to the Russian media, because it is said, they are told. They see that and Ukrainian media is not telling the truth, because they do not know where the truth lies. I believe that human rights should affect the international community to ensure that journalists from both sides could work. Still, we do not have weapons, we are not dangerous, we should be able to say what is happening on the other side and on the other, then some kind of truth we know. that human rights should affect the international community to ensure that journalists from both sides could work. Still, we do not have weapons, we are not dangerous, we should be able to say what is happening on the other side and on the other, then some kind of truth we know. that human rights should affect the international community to ensure that journalists from both sides could work. Still, we do not have weapons, we are not dangerous, we should be able to say what is happening on the other side and on the other, then some kind of truth we know.

Kristina Gorelik: According to the Ukrainian authorities, the residents of Slavyansk voluntarily surrender arms. Mary really will not pursue these people? How have such fears? Anastasia says, they are afraid that they will find out: he fought, fought, and this story will be injected.

Mariya Tomak: We have a clear promise that we must, of course, control, and by the President and the Minister of Internal Affairs that persecute people, in whose hands there is no blood, are not guilty of serious crimes will not. That is, people who expressed their separatist ideas or somehow supported separatism, they will not be punished, as opposed to those who have already seen a much more serious things. Of course, it is necessary to control and monitor this. We have already Krasnolimanskiy precedent when according to several sources did people who were in favor of separatism, they had not been persecuted, they had not been arrested. Those who kill, those who used to torture people, those who stole must be punished, of course.

Kristina Gorelik: First there must be an investigation and the trial.

Tatyana Lokshina: I very much hope that the Ukrainian human rights activists will be able to monitor the situation in Slavyansk, and in other areas that are now controlled by Ukrainian forces. It is important that the authorities deliver on their promises to those promises do not remain in the form of declarations. I would also like to emphasize that the work of human rights defenders in the region of conflict is no less dangerous than working journalists. Of course, when the last trip we were in Slavyansk, we almost did not get to Mr. Strelkov in the same basement and in this trip we also had enough unpleasant situation. All working in the conflict zone would like to wish the best of luck. It is very important to work there, journalists, human rights activists worked to there were people who see it with my own eyes.

Sourse, 07/07/2014