About the war, a chance for peace and return Crimea to Ukraine
About the one who started the war between Ukraine and Russia, the possibility of negotiating with terrorists DNR-LC, the project “New Russia”, the initial war plans of the Russian Federation and many other things in an interview with Ukrainian izdniya “Apostrophe” Artem Dehtyarenko told Russian politician, a human rights activist and public figure, the executive Director of the movement “For human rights”, a member of the Moscow Helsinki Group, Lev Ponomarev.
– Wednesday, 14 October, one of the leaders of the Ukrainian diaspora in Russia Viktor Girzhovu five years was denied entry to Russia. A day earlier, the same fate befell his sister Hope Savchenko – Vera (later it is still allowed in Russia, – “Apostrophe”). What is behind this policy of repression known Russian Ukrainians, who were “undesirable” for the country’s authorities?
– Everything is obvious. It is a continuation of the hostile policy pursued by Russia in relation to Ukraine. Now, thank God, there are calls “kill the Ukrainians,” as it was before, and almost in a form shown on TV. Nevertheless, there is a continuation of various bureaucratic procedures, contact the restriction associated with the Ukrainians. But, on the other hand, this is a mutual process. Ukraine has limited the entry into its territory to journalists who lied about her being in the Russian Federation. That such is the mutual war. Thank God, not hot. My point of view known. I have already said that the responsibility for this war has Russia.
– What, in that case, this is due to softening of the position of the Russian media in relation to Ukraine?
– I think that in part it affects the Russian military operation in Syria. To fight on two fronts, as they say, do not have enough forces. But in it there is also the effect of the Minsk agreements. The decision to stop fight was made earlier. We, human rights defenders, at the earliest stage called for negotiations with Kiev samoprovozglashen
– How do you, having many years of experience in the human rights activist, think of the current lawsuits against Russia in the Ukrainian hostages Savchenko Sentsova, Kol’chenko and others? whether they appealed to the protection of your organization led by “For Human Rights” for help?
– These processes attracted a lot of attention. We speak out on these issues. I, for one, believe that the case against Savchenko initiated artificially. I believe in the information that she was brought to the territory of Russia. But I’m not in this process. I went to the Presidential Administration, when he was a picket when Savchenko was starving, and so on. That is – I feel sorry for her. However, in the process, our organization does not participate. Savchenko have fairly well-known lawyers, they quite actively support it, communicate with the press and so on. Therefore, a great need for human rights defenders, they probably do not. They did not apply to us. But for our part we are doing something. In periods of exacerbation, for example, prepare a written appeal.
– Ukrainian pilots not yet passed sentence. Can you predict the verdict?
– Most likely, the sentence will be quite severe. This is necessary in order to raise the stakes in a possible exchange.
– Do you think the exchange is still possible?
– Yes, in my opinion, it is quite real. But only after the verdict. In Ukraine, for example, the trial of the GRU (taken prisoner in the Donbass – “Apostrophe”) has not yet been. This exchange has long been discussed in public, it is possible. Evgeny Erofeev and Aleksandru Aleksandrovu, apparently, generally faces life. Therefore, everything is possible. This is politics, not justice.
– So you are talking exclusively about the exchange of people to people? The fact that some experts believe that the Ukrainian hostages in Russia can “trade” in exchange for more meaningful things – such as the recognition of the Crimean Russian or weakening the West’s sanctions against the Russian Federation.
– I think it will be an exchange of people. Anyone understands that the issue of Crimea – much more difficult. It concerns the citizens who live there. I am not in any way do not consider there was held a “referendum” legitimate, but, nevertheless, I suspect that if we now spend really a legitimate public opinion poll on the peninsula, it would show that the majority of local residents in favor of joining Russia. On the one hand, I think it is absolutely illegal annexation of Crimea, because it is – the annexation and the violation of international treaties. I am on this subject held numerous meetings and actively fought, but in fact we can not disregard the views of citizens who live in the Crimea. And their opinion is likely to be in favor in order to stay in Russia. This, too, must somehow be taken into account.
Therefore, there is nothing can not be solved quickly. On this occasion, there must be some strategy. The best way, in my opinion, would be co-administration of the peninsula of Russia and Ukraine. If countries can reconcile, of course. It is possible that after a few years Crimeans want to return to Ukraine. But it will be only in the event that Ukraine will overcome the political and economic crises.
– In one of your interviews you said that you went to the occupied part of the Donbass there during the “referendum” (May 2014 – “Apostrophe”). Were you there after the visit?
– No. After that trip I was in the so-called LNR and DNR was no longer.
– How do you feel about the fact that the leaders of samoprovozglashen
– I welcome this decision. This is a great success of the Minsk talks. At the same time, it shows that the Kremlin starts to recede. But the problem is still a lot to come. If you speak out symmetrically, that there are problems in Ukraine. Radicals pressed, Poroshenko maneuvers, and I understand that this is a complex process. I can not say that I watch closely and support each step of the Ukrainian authorities, but I’d like to see the situation in the country was stable. And it prevents the pressure exerted on Poroshenko by radical forces.
– You were on the territory occupied by the so-called DNR and LNR, a specialist in the field of human rights protection. Is it possible, do you think there holding the election campaign of Ukrainian legislation
– I do not know. I can not say. I do not know much, what’s happening now. In general, this is necessary to achieve and seek some compromises. You see, when I once said that the negotiations should be conducted with those who control the situation in the so-called DNR and LNR, I was heavily criticized. At the time Yeltsin (Boris Eltsin, former president of the Russian Federation – “Apostrophe”) engaged in dialogue with Maskhadov (former Chechen President Aslan Maskhadov, – “Apostrophe”). And nothing terrible has happened. Therefore, the statement that Poroshenko would never engage in dialogue with carpentry and Zakharchenko, in my opinion – wrong. Such negotiations can move forward the peace process. But, on the other hand, Poroshenko can not afford it, because Parliament will rise against him. I do not know all the nuances of the political, but human rights activists say, that this dialogue is necessary. Donbas there are areas where people are actually starving. With this need to do something about it.
– Many experts say that Kiev does not make sense to engage in direct dialogue with the leaders of the militants because they are totally dependent on Moscow and to make their own decisions can not. What do you say about this? You think that it is not?
– Well, we’re not talking about the technical negotiations. Of course, Moscow. But if you negotiate with them, then Moscow will be glad this. We need a compromise for the sake of the people, for the sake of citizens. My logic in this sense as a human rights activist is consistent – we had a mass hostage-taking by terrorists. And in Moscow Dubrovka theater and Beslan, and so on. But we have always said that in order to save lives need to negotiate with terrorists. In the case of so-called DNR and LNR this logic is retained. You can and should negotiate with the terrorists, if it is required for humanitarian reasons.
– How, in your opinion, the Kremlin is now wants to use the Donbass?
– I think that they want as long as you can to stir up trouble there, but will succumb to international pressure. This will go a negotiating process.
– That’s the plan, which was conceived originally by the Kremlin, and now he’s changed?
– I think it was originally conceived more. But in the end it fell through. Judging by the war effort, the August to direct invasion (in 2014 – “Apostrophe”), it was planned much more.
– You mean the creation of a “New Russia”?
– And the “New Russia”, and then – in Odessa, come out to the sea. There’s a serious offensive would be. But everything fell through. Probably correct to say that Mr. Putin – a tactic, not a strategy. But the fact that the annexation of the Crimea to prepared in advance – it’s a fact. Back in the early 1990s, Yeltsin offered to return the peninsula to Russia. But after the revolution in Ukraine, a good time to do so.
– You were sent to the US Embassy and the administration of the Russian president’s open letter to Baraku Obame and Vladimir Putin to mediate in resolving the Ukrainian crisis and prevent the bloodshed. With Russia, all is clear, but why did you choose the United States?
– I think it was the right offer. All the same, everything is decided by Putin and Obama. My initiative was supported by Mikhail Gorbachev. He directly referred to my letter. When I called Gorbachev, he considered it important to do so. However, our appeals were not heeded neither Putin nor Obama.
– How, then, do you assess the current “Norman” negotiation format, which does not participate the United States?
– Obama behind the scenes. Therefore, everything happens slowly. They also need each other to settle everything, you know? I could not have foreseen that Mrs. Merkel will be a real leader, and will actually steer it all. But then I wanted to intervene and prevent the war as soon as possible. Because I knew that it starts. If Putin and Obama met then they would stop this war.
– Is it enough, in your opinion, the current format for a speedy settlement of the situation in Ukraine?
– I believe that if the United States were directly involved in it, and it would be much more effective between Obama and Putin would exist dialogue, that’s all. In this case, it is clear that Putin this dialogue seeks to …
– At one time, you talked about the deplorable situation of human rights in the Donbas. And how in this area is the case in the Crimea?
– It is all very bad. I tried several times to create a group out there, which could be vzaimodeystvovat
– And if once again to talk about the return of the Crimea Ukrainian theme, or could, do you think the West is to leave this issue out of the equation and come to terms with the Crimea as part of Russia?
– Crimea requires a sustained effort. This can be compared with the war that starts fast, but it is necessary to stop a lot of time. Therefore, the issues of Donbass and the Crimea Ukraine return – different time. It must be understood.
– Over the past two years significantly soured relations between ordinary citizens of our countries, far away from politics. How do I fix this situation?
– I was recently in Kiev, and no negative noticed by the Ukrainians. In the Russian Federation – is another matter, because the propaganda raised by the Russians the feeling of hatred towards the Ukrainians. It was a peculiar form of xenophobia. If earlier xenophobia in Russia has more than directed against Caucasians, but now it has shifted to the Ukrainians. But now the war in Syria shows that people quickly forget about it and xenophobia disappears. I think that soon it will disappear altogether. Because we have a very strong family ties. I am sure that Ukraine – before, and Russia – a little later will be European countries in a large European unification. I do not know whether it will be called European Union or something different, but we’ll be friends. In this I am sure.
Artem talked Dehtyarenko
Sourse, 20/10/2015
