This war for Ukraine – a huge test in terms of basic values

Senior director of research at the international human rights organization Amnesty International Anna Neistat – about the peculiarities of the work of human rights defenders in conflict zones, the situation in Ukraine, and why it is important to protect the rights of people regardless of their beliefs

Anna Neistat – senior research director at the human rights organization , Amnesty International, , a former deputy director of Emergency Human Rights Watch .

In its portfolio of over 60 investigations in the hot spots. Engaged in human rights training, the development of human rights investigations techniques led missions to collect information in areas of conflict.

At the 13th International Film Festival of Human Rights Film Docudays UA RU , which takes place in Kiev from March 25 to April 1, will be showing the film “E-Team” Ross Kauffman and Keyti Shevini, featuring Anna Neistat. The film recorded the work of human rights defenders to collect information in conflict zones, which is especially important for the Ukrainian viewers who may ask questions Anne Neystat during the discussion.

“Ukrainian Truth. Life” met with Anna during a seminar on ethics for journalists, organized by the OSCE. They talked about the features of the work of human rights defenders in conflict zones, the situation in Ukraine, and why it is important to protect the rights of people regardless of their beliefs.

Sooner or later people will be held accountable for their crimes. Mechanisms have. We will wait

– You have worked in different countries in conflict. As far as what is happening in each country is unique? Can there be universal mechanisms to resolve them?

– Unfortunately, what is happening in Ukraine – is not unique. And this is in no way a consolation, but it is important to understand. And like a lot of the worst happened and is happening at the moment in various countries.

would say so – I am surprised at the versatility of evil. People of completely different cultures, education, ethnicity able in certain circumstances to commit the same atrocities. I think that this applies not only to situations of conflict, but also to everyday reality.

However, this is not part of my job – to wonder why an airline pilot pushes a button and bombed a residential area, or why a person pulls the trigger and kills any innocent people.

On the other hand, of course, the situation in some way unique. When we analyze what can be done – it is important to dig deep and try to understand the driving forces of conflict. They can be internal: religious, territorial, for the land resources. They can be affected by external factors. We need to understand who benefits from it, what forces are supporting one side or another.

– What stage of the conflict in Ukraine?

– It is not a post-conflict. When the guns a little subside, begin to occur disappearance, detention, legal chaos. On the scorched earth war is thriving, because the forces that will never be in another situation would not have the power, it is obtained.

I worked in the Crimea and Donbas. One of the questions I asked at the beginning of the conflict in Donetsk – what will happen to all these people? Many of them before the war, suffered from terrible economic situation, abused alcohol. And suddenly into their hands got weapons, money, gave them a taste of power.

There was quite a lot of people, I communicated with them.

The most terrible thing – it’s not a time when they can use it all, but that what happens then, when the war ends.

Because when the real enemy is not armed, and the weapons are still there, and now this unlimited power is still there – the violence begins to spill on ordinary citizens, political opponents, and this cycle is very difficult to complete.

– On human rights defenders often have high expectations. That in such a situation, they can really do?

– I think in this situation it is very important to continue to write about it. This is the moment when the journalists, at least by Western journalists, most of them left, and the situation is not covered on the front pages.

So it was in Chechnya, Georgia, it’s happening now in South Ossetia.

First of all, we must try to continue to talk about what is really going on.

– It is the task of journalists.

– and human rights too. We write about it in a different way. This detailed, detailed reports that tell us about what is happening.

This makes sense, because, as a rule, such reports are covered by media. We draw attention to these problems to ensure that they are not forgotten.

Ukraine is at the crossroads of international interests. I do not think about it forget, so some form of pressure can be effective.

Russia has seriously paid for this conflict – mean sanctions, and generally, relations with the West. Therefore it is impossible to say that one can not do anything.

I hope that sooner or later people will be held accountable for their crimes. Therefore it is necessary to document the crimes in detail, which are made both one and the other side. It will be very difficult five years later to begin to investigate what is happening now.

So, of course, this kind of work “in the box”, but it does work for the future.

Rarely think about the principle of universal jurisdiction. If we have sufficient documentation that any of these people involved in war crimes, torture – we will wait, when they will travel to countries where there are laws that allow them to bring to trial.

Mechanisms have. I think that sooner or later they will be involved.

– As a rule, are responsible executors. Politicians who make decisions in the best case are politically responsible, and then not always.

– Of course, ideally we would like to see customers in exactly the same prosecution. This happens rarely.

But, on the other hand, the question of liability and the potential liability, even though the performers – from my point of view, will make the next person with a gun in his hands to think before pressing the trigger. This results in saving lives.

Secondly, I do not cease to remind that such opportunities as they are now, 30 years ago we did not have. Still, there are mechanisms, there are organizations, there are international institutions that can ensure accountability for their actions.

I know this from experience. When the village fighters suddenly start to speak: “The International Criminal Court!” – you know that before they somehow this information is reached.

They do not know what exactly it is they are threatened, but they understand that, they may not be able to escape responsibility, whatever lawlessness situation is not at the moment.

Human rights begin at a time when the need to protect those whose opinion does not coincide with your

– Can human rights afford a personal opinion about the conflict in the Donbass?

– I have an opinion on what was going on, based on the results of my investigations. In this sense, a personal opinion from a professional is quite the same.

With regard to participation in the Russian, then I have no doubt. Moreover, we were the results of the shooting from a satellite, which showed the Russian equipment.

Of course, there is one Russian has not done. It is clear that, in the end, is a local armed militia. But whether it would be held on the militia, if Russia would not give such a signal, as later regretted? Because right now, I think, do not know in Russia, what to do with the Donbas.

in respect of Donbass plan I have never been clear. At first it seemed to me that all of this is set out to disrupt the presidential election in Ukraine. But then, when they allowed elections to take place Poroshenko and allowed to come to power, it was not clear at all – what is all this?

In Crimea, the situation is different. The motive is clear – political benefit from the Crimea to Russia was enormous, at least at first. Let’s see what will happen next.

But with the Donbas from the beginning it was not so.

The problem with any war that engage in it is very simple, but difficult to get out. I suspect now that there is a never-ending bargaining between the DNI, LC and Russia. I could be wrong, but from a political point of view, but to preserve the seat of tension in Ukraine, there is no political gain is not for Russia.

It is likely to be a frozen conflict, at least for a few years.

– What is the role of propaganda? Sometimes there are concepts that seemed written in the days of the USSR, and it across borders.

– We, in Ukraine, Russia, Georgia, can not get out of this Soviet attitude. Sometimes I see rewritten the history books, but even those tasks that children are given at school. It’s just terrible. The problem is that this set of measures, at least in Russia – is an information machine.

It would be unfortunate if Ukraine will happen the same.

This war for Ukraine – a huge test in terms of basic values. I remember very well the Maidan, and all that happened then. When we met with various senior people – the Attorney General, the ministers – to be seen how they are trying to, shall we say, “to be on the right side of history.”

And even when we discussed with them it is very difficult questions with regards to volunteer battalions, whose hands to the elbows in blood – it was clear that for them it’s not the most pleasant conversation, but it was perfectly adequate response leaders seeking to be civilized.

Overall, there was a feeling that Ukraine is trying to move to a completely different public, state level.

And it will be very sorry if this does not happen – because then the goal of Russia in this war will be achieved.

– Sometimes it seems that we are moving towards this goal. Including journalists who patriotic reasons hush information, and can not identify to protect their colleagues, as happened in the case of Ruslan Kotsaboy .

– It’s easy to protect your.

Human rights begin at a time when the need to protect those whose opinion is different from yours. We have repeatedly raised these issues, both during the hot phase of the conflict, as well as after.

As an example, the same Grem Fillips, with whom I entered into an endless war in Twitter. When he was detained and taken to an unknown destination, we were the first who wrote in the British consulate and the Ukrainian authorities: Up until proven guilty of committing any illegal actions – it is impossible to detain him simply because he is a journalist and It expresses the view does not necessarily reflect the views of the Ukrainian authorities, and that he should be let go.

It is at this keeps civil society and civil liberties.

I’ve worked in hot spots. Testing of the war, especially when you are a true patriot of his country, it is very difficult to pass. But go it must. That then, in time of peace to build a society not their and strangers, enemies and friends – but still the civilized world.

Because if this is not done, there will be a very shaky construction. She does not hold, particularly in young democracies, which is Ukraine. Support is needed, rather than jingoism.

– At what stage of the conflict can begin the process of reconciliation? And how many years in the case of Ukraine, it may take?

– This is a complex, philosophical question. The reconciliation process is desirable to begin before the conflict began.

There is such an organization, the Institute for Historical Justice and Reconciliation (Institute for Historical Justice and Reconciliation) . They study the conflicts that took place in the XIX-XX centuries, which still have an impact on relations between countries and peoples. Their examples show that although the acute phase of the conflict behind and formal reconciliation took place – the real problem is not solved.

I do not really understand what were the relations between Kiev and the Donbas, or speaking more broadly, between eastern and western Ukraine to this conflict. But it seems to me that if lawlessness is overcome, it is difficult to imagine that the residents of Donbas will be decades of enmity and hate the inhabitants of Kiev.

Donbas is no real reason to continue the feud there. If, again, the official Kiev does not prohibit the use of the Russian language.

There will always be a group, and here and there, to be radically adjusted – it is inevitable. But everyday, everyday level, I do not think we will have to deal with Israel and Palestine.

Crimea – is a completely different situation.

From the point of view of international law it is an occupation. No historical reasons there are not important, because that way you can begin to alter in Europe every border.

But in terms of population, is much more serious question: what would happen if Crimea will remain part of Russia? And what would happen if today it will return back to Ukraine?

We can somehow influence the situation – and this prospect does not give up

– How did Amnesty International are the relations with the secret services?

– I would not say that we have an open confrontation with the security services. And another question, what special services? Here is the English secret services have actively listened to, now there is a trial. That is, when we talk about intelligence, we are not necessarily talking about the secret services in the countries in which we do not want to see.

There are countries in which we are not allowed the government, not the security services. Amnesty International is trying to work always very openly, saying their presence.

Azerbaijan is the second time, if I’m not mistaken, do not let our delegation. It is the same with Morocco, where recently sent my colleagues.

If you talk about me, the number of countries to which I can go, is rapidly declining.

The more advanced methods of the security services are, the more advanced and become our storage methods, because it is not just about obtaining or failure to receive information – and very often the life and freedom of people.

Sometimes communication with the secret police is unpleasant. Donbas arrested my colleague some local special services. Eventually released, but it was very unpleasant interaction.

International,, Amnesty – a great organization. And, as a rule, more expensive special services to communicate with us. We are unpleasant for them, dangerous, but not enough to take some drastic action.

For example, we expect that in Moscow at any time, our office may be closed. Here it is not about the secret services – and on the Ministry of Justice, which deals with the registration. But while they’re on the move do not go.

In addition, there are countries in which we simply do not work because they do not know how we can not think of ways to resist the intelligence services, the army, to protect our employees, our resources, and so on.

Now, fortunately, there are many ways to make an investigation in the distance. This is not so good, it’s not complete, but, nevertheless, in terms of security – this is the only possibility.

– You have worked in Syria, what is happening there now?

– There is absolutely stunning process, about which very little is written.

In Syria, as you know, in recent months has been catastrophic humanitarian situation – daily bombings, and now the Russian aircraft, the use of prohibited weapons … People were dying of starvation in the besieged cities, where it was impossible to deliver aid, and if it was delivered then this, of course, was not enough.

The sides agreed to a cease-fire. Like any ceasefire is violated. But, at least, the daily bombing to date have fallen significantly.

And most interesting is that just a week ago on this background again began mass demonstrations, at least in the areas controlled by the opposition – are the same as occurred in the spring of 2011.

And for me it is a fact of great significance.

Because the whole world has believed in the Russian theory that “all of Syria – this is one solid or LIH troops Assad” – and then went out to the street people who have no connection to radical movements.

And it’s amazing. There are hundreds and thousands on the streets! It is interesting that very little is written about it. Because it does not fit into the narrative, which is now dominant.

The fate of Syria – in the hands of Russian-American talks. There are other side: Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Iran. I think that some kind of a truce is reached. The question is, that it will mean. Will the Assad in power, under what conditions?

On the other hand, about a truce would we say – LIH it does not affect. This truce, which does not include one of the very significant belligerents.

If everything was done three years ago, the conflict could be resolved one way or another, and to stop the war.

But now there is a very significant part of the conflict, who had nothing to whose interests, American or Russian – and the interests they have only their own. And here already, how successful it may be a truce, even if it had once been reached between the opposition and Assad – the war with LIH will remain a very important factor.

– People for a long time working in war zones, regularly witness the great human misery. That protects human rights defenders from the professional burnout?

– an important experience and training. We will never send our new investigators alone not only in the zone of conflict, and even on a trip, where they will talk to witnesses.

But there are people who can do the job, and who can not, simply by virtue of their psychological features.

We all burn out, it is inevitable. The question is, definitively or for a time? It may save a couple of weeks off and disconnect from the e-mail. It also needs to be taken for granted.

In, Amnesty International, there is a serious psychological support service for people who need it. There is someone to talk to, to get professional help.

You see injuries, talking about the most terrible things to people, hear the tragedy. But it is precisely in these situations we are faced with tremendous lessons of courage, perseverance, humanity, are so rarely seen in everyday life. And this is also part of the job. This strengthens us as individuals.

In the words of one of my colleagues, we see the worst in humanity, and the best thing in it. There is a completely different perspective of their own lives, look at everyday problems.

And finally, I would say that human rights defenders have a feeling that we can somehow influence the situation – and that the prospect of action does not give up.

Interviewed Aksinia Kurin

Sourse, 26/03/2016