Nadia Savchenko: life in exchange

Nadezhda Savchenko agreed to suspend the strike after a telephone conversation with President of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko. This was reported by her lawyers.

April 19 Poroshenko said that during yesterday’s telephone conversation with Russian leader Vladimirom Putinym “managed to agree on a specific algorithm liberation” Savchenko. The Kremlin said that the fate of Ukrainian troops indeed “discussed” in a conversation with Putin. However, the details of that discussion, the press secretary of the Russian president Dmitriy Peskov declined to speak.

On the eve of Kiev court sentenced him to 14 years in prison Russians Evgeny Erofeev and Aleksandra Aleksandrova, finding them guilty of “waging war against Ukraine,” as well as “organizing and committing a terrorist act.” A number of Russian and Ukrainian officials then said that the imposition of a sentence can start the process of the Russians in exchange for Savchenko.

March 22 court sentenced Russian Nadezhda Savchenko to 22 years in prison on charges of complicity in the murder of two journalists of VGTRK at Lugansk in the summer of 2014. The day after the sentence comes into force – 6 April – Ukrainian troops in protest hunger strike. Her lawyers have reported a rapid deterioration of health of his client.

Discuss the situation politician Ivan Krulko (Kiev); Russian human rights activist, leader of the movement “For Human Rights”, a member of the Moscow Helsinki Group , Lev Ponomarev .

Moderator – Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior .

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: Nadezhda Savchenko stopped the hunger strike after a telephone conversation with President of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko. About this on Twitter lawyer said Ukrainian troops Ilya Novikov.

On Tuesday, Poroshenko said that during a telephone conversation with Russian leader Vladimirom Putinym “managed to agree on a specific algorithm liberation” Savchenko.

The situation we are discussing with our guest – Russian human rights activist Lvom Ponomarevym, leader of the All-Russian Movement “For Human Rights”, a member of the Moscow Helsinki Group.

Lev Aleksandrovich whether a good sign that the camera to convict held direct dial telephone with the president?

Lev Ponomarev: It’s obvious. It is hard to imagine a different course of events, but to liberation of her soon, and most likely – tomorrow.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: Do Savchenko won at least a moral victory over their persecutors?

Lev Ponomaryov: Yes, she showed us all an example of how to fight for the truth, for themselves, for human dignity. She – the heroine!

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: Let’s see a video clip of our colleagues from the Reuters news agency that the President of Ukraine spoke about his conversation with Vladimir Putin.

Reporter: The President of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko said that the agreed algorithm liberation Hope Savchenko. Ukrainian aviator was sentenced in Russia to 22 years in prison on charges of involvement in the murder of Russian journalists at Lugansk.

Petr Poroshenko: The conversation with Putin was initiated by me. Judging by the preliminary preparations, I think we succeeded in establishing an algorithm for the release of Hope Savchenko.

Reporter: On the eve of Ukrainian court sentenced Russian Evgeny Erofeev and Aleksandra Aleksandrova to 14 years in prison. They were arrested in May last year after a fight between the Ukrainian military and fighters self-proclaimed Luhansk People’s Republic. The court found them guilty of waging aggressive war and terrorism.

Petr Poroshenko: This decision opens up some opportunities for engagement exchange mechanism. However, I would ask to avoid speculation in this regard, including on the follow-up period and the return Savchenko.

Reporter: Russian Defense Ministry denies sending troops to the east of Ukraine. The ministry said that Yerofeyev and Alexander at the time of arrest retired from the Armed Forces of Russia.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: Condemning Hope Savchenko, Russia indirectly acknowledged her side of the conflict?

Lev Ponomarev: It is not necessary to even discuss it. It seems to me, it is much more important that the three men, I hope the result will be on the loose. They – a pawn in the conflict. Are these two young men are to blame for the fact that they were in the Ukraine? They were sent because they are military. Of course, it looks pretty disgusting that Russia rejected them. But we must be glad that free will and these two young men, and Nadezhda Savchenko.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: We have a connection from Kiev Ivan Krulko, MP from the “Fatherland” faction.

Ivan Ivanovich won if your Minded faction Nadezhda Savchenko moral victory over their judges?

Ivan Krulko:I think Nadezhda Savchenko has won over not only the judges, but also of Putin’s regime. Because of its resistance it showed how it is possible even in such circumstances, to defend their country. And we hope that soon it will be in Ukraine. All the more so in the territory of Russia and the Ukraine, she did not commit any crime. All that was against her – far-fetched, sewn with white thread. The case fell apart. And because in Russia, unfortunately no free trial, Nadezhda Savchenko received 22 years in prison in prison. Even when compared with citizens of Russia … I was yesterday at the sentencing to two sorudnikam GRU who committed crimes on the territory of Ukraine of illegally crossing the border and actually killed. They got 14 years, and Nadezhda Savchenko, which was stolen from the Ukraine, hooded transported to Russia, and then convicted on the absurd case, shitomu white thread, got 22 years old. You can compare the two processes, two sentences – and draw conclusions.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: Is it possible to be considered a political prisoner Hope?

Lev Ponomaryov: Of course. Political prisoner – when the state intervenes in court proceedings, in advance formulating judgment. It is clear that in this case, and so it was. The state has identified her guilty, kidnapped her from the territory of Ukraine and condemned. Of course, it is a political prisoner.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: A Is Hope “prisoner of conscience”?

Ivan Krulko: Of course, it is “a prisoner of conscience.” It clearly falls within the definition of a political prisoner. It has expanded the small list of members of national parliaments and PACE members who are political prisoners. By the way, in the history of the PACE of these cases there were only two, both connected with the Russian Federation. But to keep in jail deputy who is a member of PACE – the first time this has happened, it is a precedent.

By the way, are now undergoing the meeting of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe. And we have seen during the first meeting that MPs from different countries expressed their protest. Tomorrow the hearing will be held in PACE on “business Savchenko.”

Vladimir Kara-Murza, Sr.: The fact that even the relatives of the dead journalists are reluctant to participate in the prosecution and even went to court, says something?

Lev Ponomarev: It is clear that far-fetched accusation. The prosecution should have brought convincing evidence of her guilt. A convincing evidence was not. This is the first. Second. Protection is not allowed to prove the absence of guilt – not examine the application, and so on. In principle, this process is quite typical for Russia, where courts are political. It is a political prisoner, and the trial was unfair.

But it should be noted that the hopes of the whole process was kept quite worthy. Of course, we can say that for it struggled, as they say, the whole world – and PACE, and Ukraine, and in Russia it is very sympathetic to many, we went to demonstrations, pickets. But the big winner – this is it. She parlayed her life. And dry hunger strike for several days, and then she agreed to it fed intravenously – is its script. She was holding their own destiny and their freedom. In this sense, she really heroine.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: A played a role determination whether hopes to continue a hunger strike?

Ivan Krulko: This is an extreme measure. We are very worried about the choices made hope, as a matter of life and death. But its pressure has played a significant role. Last night, a conversation between the presidents of Ukraine and Russia. Poroshenko initiated this conversation as a last resort, in order to still discuss the possibility of release Hope Savchenko. Of course, this played a role. Believe me, it has a very strong pressure and in Ukraine. While we understand that Ukraine’s ability to do so is quite limited. Since we are dealing with a very unpredictable actions of the Kremlin, which does not shrink from any means to achieve their goals. And the life of Russian citizens, especially citizens of other countries, generally have no significance.

Look at what happened to the two employees of the GRU, which were sent to the Ukraine to kill civilians there, and people with weapons to wage a war of aggression against Ukraine. As soon as they were caught – as soon as they are rejected. They said: “We do not know who they are they do not work in.”. They had orders to fire them, signed retrospectively. And in Ukraine it is impossible to imagine. When caught our serviceman, Ukraine immediately recognized that this was a man who defended his country, and we will fight for the liberation of all the methods of Hope. This is a very striking difference between the two processes, the different fates of people, military personnel, one of which is to defend our country, and the other two – attacking someone else. I’m weird that Russia easily abandons its citizens, and what happens to them, it does not matter – either their fate or the fate of their relatives. In general, the complete indifference.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: Did offensive were for Hope hints Russian propagandists that no hunger strike, she does not hold?

Ivan Krulko: I remember the reaction of Hope on those two prankerov who played her lawyers. Her reaction was very adequate. She said it does not matter to her. As well, it seems to me, does not matter, and advocates for her reaction. That is, it has chosen its path, and this path is fairly resistant. It is his “little war” behind bars, and shows that one person, a woman with a very strong-willed character can withstand an entire car – and eventually win. Here is the way of Hope. And I think that it has already gone down in history as the man who can really be considered a hero of his country, and it is for them to Ukraine.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: And how were ridiculous efforts of the Kremlin propagandists that today, when the whole world is talking about the fate of Hope Savchenko, turn up some date that marks 233 years the annexation of Crimea by Catherine II? Imitated elation of the local population. In my opinion, the Kremlin propaganda machine gives a clear failure.

Lev Ponomaryov: Yes, of course. But there is one problem. You can come up with some sort of myth and impose it, but then it should be developed. And then there is a logical impasse. To maintain the enthusiasm of the population, it is necessary to always come up with some reasons for it. And to do it more and more difficult to break the deadlock they can not find. In general, Putin’s regime is now at an impasse. And ahead – a rather alarming situation.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: the hope of the entire world says – I was watching news agencies. And only on the Russian channels – not a word.

Lev Ponomaryov: Yes, it’s amazing. But they are “sold out”, as they say. I’m trying to communicate with the Kremlin, but I am not politician, I am a human rights activist, and I’m interested in the fact that the government did the right steps in terms of human rights: to free people who do not tolerate murder, torture and everything else. But for some reason they do not take those scenarios in which they could get out of the difficult circumstances in which there are. It’s an amazing story: any problem is driven into a blind alley.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: Did the fate of the Crimean Tatar activists said that in the Crimea is now the same processes as in the whole of Russia, – “crackdown” and the beginning of political repression?

Ivan Krulko: There are several components of this important issue. I have a lot of friends and acquaintances who are Crimean Tatars. And I am very worried about the fate of those who remained in the Crimea, the Crimean Tatars, where the pressure is again. After all, only in the 91 th year, when Ukraine has renewed its independence, the Crimean Tatars were allowed to return to their homeland. By their genocidal under Stalin evicted from their territory for a few months, completely all the people, there were only a few. A certain number have returned, but after 20 years or so they have come under new persecutions. We know about the decision of the Russian authorities to ban the Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar people and the determination of the organization as an extremist.

I remember during my stay in the People’s Ruhe Ukraine, I was 10 years in the political power, and then we teamed up with the “Fatherland.” So, the Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar people – it was part of the People’s Movement. We went to the Crimea to the elections as a political force. And when the pressure is absolutely treacherous taken a decision that it appoint a referendum, the faction “Kurultai – Movement” was in the Crimea. We act as one force. And now, it turns out, this organization became a kind of extremist. This does not fit into any legal nor moral aspects. And of course, the pressure on the Crimean Tatars will be very strong.

But the Crimean Tatars took absolutely the right decision that regardless of this, all those who can stay in the Crimea, remain there and continue to fight for their rights, the time is coming when all the same justice will prevail – and the Crimea is under the control of Ukraine as an integral part Ukrainian state.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: Let’s look at an interview with one of the lawyers of Hope – Mark Feigin – the situation with the possible exchange of Hope Savchenko, which he gave to journalists in Strasbourg on our radio station.

Mark Feigin: I’m still skeptical. Because it seems to me that the part of Putin is a certain game. He’s trying to buy time. Of course, Savchenko released. The negotiations between Poroshenko and Putin, which has been underway for a long time, give your results.

But there is an obstacle, not only political, but also the procedural sense. Sentence Yerofeyev and Alexandrova takes effect after 30 days. And only then Poroshenko, as I understand it, is going to pardon Yerofeyev and Alexandrov with the expectation that Putin will have mercy Savchenko, which will enable them to exchange. But while the Russian side has not stated publicly that it has a relatively algorithm Hope Savchenko, which they agreed with Poroshenko. The Russian side has not confirmed this publicly. Neither Putin nor his spokesman Peskov, – no one said that the agreement was reached.

Therefore, on the one hand, I support the efforts of Petro Poroshenko, who takes them to release Savchenko. But I realize that this is still very much to go through. That is, we are not talking about weeks and the days of the liberation Savchenko. It will take maybe a month, maybe more.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: Less talk about Oleg Sentsova. Is it worth it to raise his voice and on his behalf, for his release?

Lev Ponomaryov: Of course, we must talk about it. But there was some kind of a tricky game. The Russian side said that Oleg Sentsov and all his so-called “accomplices” will be exchanged for the children of the GRU.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: And the fact of the crime committed to the annexation of Crimea.

Lev Ponomaryov: If you take a hostage every Ukrainian, which is in Russia, and there are only 27 people, in every case, you can find some absurdity. But I hope that they, too, will be released.

Of course, a proposal to exchange all for all, without understanding – I think the right thing. It always happens when people want the world to end any military conflict. But Russia has said that it wants to implement the Minsk agreement to end the conflict peacefully. And she was drawn into it. “All in all” – this is the only sensible framework.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: Do obvious sfalsifitsirovannost and accusations, and in all things “really Oleg Sentsova”?

Ivan Krulko: It’s not even talk about. Of course, in the case Olega Sentsova and Kol’chenko and Chigoyza, and other Ukrainian prisoners who on trumped-up cases are in the Russian behind bars. Director accused that he was preparing a terrorist act. This is a man who, in principle, had never incriminate anything like that.

We in Ukraine, particularly in the “Fatherland”, when invited Hope Savchenko to your list, and then did everything in order to become a member of the PACE, calculated that raising a number of questions to the highest level, we will be able to save Hope return it to Ukraine. But also show a precedent of how to return to Ukraine all other Ukrainian political prisoners. And we very much hope that the way in which we will release the Hope can be either through a pardon, or by so-called serving the sentence Savchenko Ukraine. And the whole world will appeal to Putin’s regime and try to release the other Ukrainian political prisoners. And I hope soon hope to be in Ukraine, as well as other Ukrainians.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: A felt on the “straight line” of the president that no one entrusted to a question about Hope Savchenko, because it is non-winning for the Kremlin?

Lev Ponomarev: We do not know that, in addition, were in that conversation.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: There was the inclusion of the Crimea. There, the woman said, “we have no electricity for days.” This was all silent, she first said: “We have only a few minutes a day is electricity.” It has been the inclusion of Crimean. This topic should have been, but it was not.

Lev Ponomaryov: I support the performance of our counterparts that we must continue to fight, we’ll be in Russia to do so. And it seems to me that to show himself on the other hand is extremely beneficial for Putin. I am surprised that the president of Russia has the unique power to declare pardon. There’s no need for any explanation, just as an autocrat, he wrote: “I will have mercy” – all, no one needs to explain anything. It would seem that if he went that route, it would change its image in the country and in the world, and a huge capital to capitalize on this simple step. And why the president does not take advantage …

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: Because he was a precedent Khodorkovsky: he pardoned him, and then he himself has spoiled the whole game itself – announced it to the international wanted list. Absurd!

Lev Ponomaryov: Khodorkovsky became his opponent – it is still possible to understand. And here’s just people .. If he will meet director – what is to be feared .. Why people do not want to show off just a very good side when he has the opportunity to turn as if a pack of cards!. Putin – a KGB officer … There is nothing good about it does not say in this regard. And then he would have pardoned the Ukrainians, who are innocent. Or is there some tiny fault. Sentsova under torture, slandered his colleague, we know how it all happened ….

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: He then gave this testimony.

Lev Ponomaryov: But he knows the circumstances. Even if some small fault for someone and there, but because of the explosion, it was not, there was a terrorist attack. He justifies not a terrorist. For director Sentsova asked leading film directors in the world. Well, to do a good step …

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: And asked in Russian. Even Nikita Mikhalkov asked Secretary of the Union.

Lev Ponomaryov: These guys are also getting ready for the exchange. We talk about them. In my opinion, they were brought to Moscow …

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: They’ve already sent under escort.

Lev Ponomarev: It was said that the Ministry of Justice began to prepare the documents. They are waiting. And then they find out that they do not change, so to speak. If President Putin came to their position a little bit to put yourself in their place, of course, need to justify them. And it would be a huge step and a change in its own image, even Russia. I am extremely interested in it.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: Did the image of the Russian leader to his West grudge harms to which it relates to the Ukrainian prisoners?

Ivan Krulko:To use the word “image” to Mr. Putin – is even somehow not with his hands, I will tell you frankly. It seems to me that there is already everyone knows who they are dealing. And I was most interested in the fate of our children, that there are – how to pull them. Look how ridiculous with Oleg Sentsova business. Initially tried to prove that Oleg Sentsov – a citizen of Russia. He said: “No, I never got the citizenship I am a citizen of Ukraine.”. And he still explained: “No, you are a citizen of Russia.” There are many examples, and other children who have been tried. In particular, Kol’chenko, who is on trial in Grozny for the work to which he was never implicated. There’s even figured surname Yatsenyuk, who allegedly still being in high school, at age 16 was in Chechnya during the war. That is complete nonsense, which is difficult to pull the ears.

I periodically communicate with our public figures who have been convicted by the Soviet regime, which Gulag held on trumped-up cases. A lot to do with the fact that we are now seeing for the citizens of Ukraine, in those cases, which are heard in Russia, and that was in the Soviet Union. The same handwriting, the same judges and prosecutors are the same. That is all very similar, and even charges the same. Here you can give many examples, and they will get just the “top ten”.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: A convincing if the president’s words sounded that at the perimeter of Russia – all our friends? He said this at a teleconference.

Lev Ponomaryov: Then Bastrykin said that on the perimeter – all enemies. Even difficult to interpret these words. In fact, it is clear that the official propaganda, which is conducted on all television channels, inspires Russian citizens, that we are surrounded by enemies. There are no parts – on the perimeter or on the perimeter: Russia is surrounded by enemies. If you go out and ask the 70 percent of people will say, “Yes, we are surrounded by enemies We must stand.”. Already formed public opinion. And such an unexpected move that the president made in his speech allowed to talk about that around, of course, my friends, is, I think, easy schizophrenia in Russian citizens. It is difficult to understand the purpose of it. Apparently, some sign gives Putin that “we can speak with me.” And maybe tomorrow he will have mercy on all Ukrainians. If this line continues, then my suggestion, perhaps, will be heard. Well now would dokrichatsya. It will be a different president.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: A talk show on the Russian channel NTV will continue to say that Savchenko – thriller “Aydar”?

Lev Ponomaryov: No, the other will say. Just did not command the translated. It’s inertia. Program prepared in advance.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: And how far the “propaganda war” between Russia and Ukraine?

Ivan Krulko: I tell you honestly, that is not so often watch Russian television in Ukraine. Even when given the opportunity, I did not. But when he came to the court to Nadia Savchenko, periodically turned on the TV. And for some reason, I remembered that in the early 90s was a psychic Chumak, who through via the TV “charged” water basins. If you look at Russia’s “News” – is abruptly than Chumak. How do you manage to call white black and black white, befuddle the people – this, of course, amazing things. But this, unfortunately, millions of people it works, they believe everything they show “on TV.”

As for the “information war” – I would like to Ukraine, which is to carry out its information policy, including abroad, makes it more effective. And then we must admit that the Russian information machine, the propaganda works quite effectively. And we, as a nation, for many years, even before the military aggression of Russia against Ukraine at the Donbass and to the illegal annexation of the Crimea, was a victim of information policy, which was preparing to Ukrainian citizens for the scenarios that then we saw first hand after the “Revolution of dignity” in Kiev.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, Sr.: The propaganda machine, preparing, perhaps, to an unfavorable development of events around Savchenko thought of this version that Magnitsky slain by order of almost Navalny and Browder. Lev Aleksandrovich, as you this theory? We are much debated case Sergeya Magnitskogo and the situation in Russian prisons.

Lev Ponomaryov: This kind of negligence. Because if you develop such an exotic version, it is necessary at least to prove, to convince people. But they neglected it. The way in which Magnitsky died for this already traced. In addition, he wrote diaries. There is speculation whether he was killed deliberately or through negligence. Most likely due to negligence. His fate was similar to the fate of hundreds, maybe thousands of prisoners, who were also killed in the dungeons when they were not provided the required medical help in time. I myself have repeatedly saved people in the Moscow jail. Lawyers apply to us: “Do something, because it is the third heart attack.” And we provide information that he is completely healthy. And it requires a huge effort to check this man and to show that he really had several heart attacks, and release him.

We have a totally ruthless machine. And here for Putin to do with it, as they say. It is a machine that runs by inertia, grinding the fate of people. In many ways, it is based on the tradition of those who serve. Many of them are just plain sadistic. Need a great reform of the prison system. But political will is needed to ensure that it has occurred. Nothing.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: I would not say that Putin has nothing to do with. When Medvedev was president, he had just given the order to understand the “Magnitsky case”. And when he stepped down, then it all covered.

Lev Ponomaryov: Well, some gestures Medvedev did, no doubt.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: But when Vladimir Vladimirovich came back, everything was closed.

Ivan, and how do you see the political future (God willing everything goes well) Hope Savchenko in your political movement?

Ivan Krulko:Nadezhda Savchenko is already quite strong factor in Ukrainian politics, it has a very high reputation among Ukrainian citizens. I think that all citizens of Ukraine know that Nadezhda Savchenko is imprisoned in Russia. She is a team player, and as a team player, I hope it will bring a lot of benefits for our state and for our political force. We consider it an integral part of our big “Fatherland” command. And hope that it will only strengthen our position, its honest and truthful word is very important, it is very lacking, including in Ukrainian politics. It is with great awe, anticipation and positive waiting for the return of hope. She will have to improve their health, it is very strongly undermined in a Russian prison, unfortunately. But knowing Hope, she recovered her health very quickly,

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: Lev Aleksandrovich, how would you have seen the place of women in public life who have passed through the Gulag system?

Lev Ponomaryov: To the woman took the Gulag system – such examples I try to remember …

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: We have a Pussy Riot, they also become human rights defenders.

Lev Ponomaryov: Well, they were short-lived …

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: “Dvushechku”, – President said. “Dvushechku” they wound off.

Lev Ponomarev: It is difficult to compare, I would say, the fate of these women. I would not want to compare them. Here the girls have stayed two years, and they have been in show business since remained there. But there they behaved with dignity. We are telling the truth about the system of execution of punishment and everything else.

It will be very interesting to follow the fate of Hope on. I will definitely follow. And I wish her success! It will be difficult in the political system. We understand that the policy – it is a complex matter. In politics – compromise. She testified that she did not have a very capable … she won precisely because it was not a compromise. On the other hand, it has proved to be very strong-willed, intelligent man.

And what about a team player. Indeed, in Ukrainian politics is not enough more on team. We see all the time there is split the coalition, the prime minister has recently changed all the time on the brink of Poroshenko – either remain, or not. A team spirit is very important for policy. Does she understand that there must be a team player? That is to say, it is necessary to drink for it to become a significant leader, and wish her success.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: And the fact that today the Constitutional Court declared unfit for Russian decision of the Strasbourg Court – is an alarming symptom that you can not vote in prisons?

Lev Ponomaryov: I am here just react quite calmly. The fact that our lawyer, including the Movement of attorney “For Human Rights”, took part in the whole affair. Not all European countries, too, recognize the right of prisoners to vote. That is a rather complicated question, based on the traditions that exist in the country. And since there are examples of that failure to comply with the general rule does not call into question (examples already) the country’s participation in the Council of Europe, I think that nothing bad will follow. If more serious, some obvious decisions of the European Court, we will not do, that’s when there is a crisis, perhaps. Crisis will not be now.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, Sr.: The fact that the Russian delegation did not participate in the session of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe – this is due to “business Savchenko”? They feared a boycott by their colleagues on the parliamentary benches?

Ivan Krulko: International pressure exerts its action. And it is clear that Russia is trying to somehow reduce the damage for himself from it. It therefore did not go. It is directly connected with the atmosphere that prevails in PACE with regard to the fact that Russia is waging a war of aggression on the territory of Ukraine, which annexed Crimea, and no adequate conclusions from this is not done, on the contrary, everything is just getting worse. And, of course, everyone knew that this session of PACE “Savchenko deal” will have a rather serious significance.

You mentioned “Magnitsky case” and the “Magnitsky list”, which exists in the world. So, now there is a very serious “list Hope Savchenko.” I was a co-author of the Ukrainian Parliament resolution on “Savchenko list.” This list is already a few European countries have to fulfill, subject to sanctions in some individuals who are involved in the fabrication of the case, the fact that Hope Savchenko was stolen from the territory of Ukraine. I see little resemblance between the “Magnitsky case” and “business Savchenko.” But the “Magnitsky list” and “List Savchenko” – it is just something that can be combined. The abolition of human rights. People who have done this, be sure to bear international responsibility.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: We know that “Savchenko case” served as an obstacle to the negotiation process. He actively goes, if we can release the Hope, in particular in the “Minsk format”, and in other formats that exist for the negotiations on Ukraine?

Ivan Krulko: I think that “Savchenko case” was not an obstacle to the Minsk process. Especially, the Minsk process – rather doubtful. Here in Ukraine attitude is ambiguous. We believe that this is not the format that made Ukrainian negotiating position stronger. On the contrary, many politicians, I personally had drawn criticism. But it is, and it can not be ignored. But “the work of Hope Savchenko,” no way, in my opinion, did not stop the peace process. On the contrary, if Russia fulfilled its obligations quickly and released Hope Savchenko, I think it would help to promote, in particular, and in the Minsk process.

While in this case, and “Hope Savchenko case” has some promise, and in the Minsk process has some promise, which, unfortunately, are not fulfilled. At all points of the Minsk process, Russia has not implemented any item. And Ukraine was well advanced and is ready, in principle, all perform. We want peace in the territory, we want to take control of our territories, so that citizens have returned to their homes to rebuild cities that were destroyed by Russian aggression. Of course, we are interested in it. The war in the Donbass hampers economic development in Ukraine.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: Lev Aleksandrovich, “the work of Savchenko” drew attention to the situation in Russian prisons, there were kidnappings, both kidnapped her, then it was inhuman treatment in the course of the court is not allowed to her Ukrainian doctors. In my opinion, it is generally sadism.

Lev Ponomaryov: Yes. Savchenko became publicly known as the “Magnitsky case”. But in fact nothing has changed. We thought that after the obvious facts that have been published on how to Magnitsky died, something will change in the prison management system, the colonies. But nothing happened. And it’s a disaster. And most importantly, ordinary citizens is not very exciting. I’ve been on the radio and told of torture, torture of traditions that exist. And I was suddenly in response to citizens, dear Russians said: “Yes, even if they’re all are dead!” There is a moral crisis of the country, with enormous. The nation is sick. And the war with Ukraine, a war with people who are associated brotherly ties, family ties … all intertwined. After a few generations, almost everyone has Ukrainian blood, I guess. As in Ukraine – Russian. This leads to degradation. Of course, man can explain, the Ukrainians – it’s the enemy, but it is degraded as a person who himself can think and make some conclusions. A total degradation of the population leads to the fact that violence is seen as a normal way, for example, contain prisoners.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: Ivan, you have been on the court in Donetsk on hope. How clumsy Russian machine works judicial tyranny?

Ivan Krulko:I have my own experience, when I ran into a Russian court. But I would like to tell a short story about the fate of Hope Savchenko in a Russian prison. This story is very good it is characterized as a person. It somehow put in a refurbished camera in some of the many detention center where she was, and the head of the detention center asked her if she was pleased that she was in the renovated chamber. She said: “No, not happy.” And she will be pleased if they will repair the camera on the entire second floor, where she was kept, all the other prisoners. And it has achieved its goal – the cameras repaired within a week. Made cosmetic repairs. I asked if she was satisfied. She says: “Now I can be happy and thank you that you have created at least some conditions for the other prisoners.”. It’s like a characteristic of Hope.

As for your question – yes, I was faced with the fact that, because I used the phone during the trial, browse the Internet, the judge brought me out of the courtroom. It was in Donetsk. I went out. At first I did not understand what was happening because I was approached by a man in a mask and with a gun, law enforcement, instructed to muzzle me and said: “You have to go.” Later I realized that I was asked to get out of the courtroom. And after a while I was allowed back on the session, as in the passage I have done more harm to Putin’s political machine than in the hall, because there started to give interviews. I all channels immediately called. But this is a special case.

In general, the Court itself was not. Judges generally not interested in his defense. All the arguments have been rejected, the materials were not taken note, as the sentence has been programmed and written in advance. And all we saw was a sham, window dressing in order to somehow justify all that chaos, that we’ve seen in the trial of Nadia Savchenko.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: We know that in these days takes place the 40th anniversary of the Helsinki Group. Among the former Soviet republics, the rest somehow moved – the Baltic states, Ukraine – towards the Helsinki standards. And only Russia, in my opinion, again pulled back into the past.

Lev Ponomaryov: We have also had success in the early ’90s. Therefore, we can not say that, say, vain Moscow Helsinki Group was established … Many members of the Moscow Helsinki Group, have been planted, there was a struggle. All this was organized in the early 90s. Where was the first “Orange Revolution”? Many called Kiev. And in fact, in Moscow at the beginning of the 90s it was the first peaceful democratic revolution in the Soviet Union. And now there is a reaction. And it is predictable: it was a revolution – is rolled back, the reaction, it is quite a natural process. I do not believe we are finally lost. We are going to move – and catch up with those of the republic, who are ahead of us in the democratic process. We were the metropolis, we had more diseases, was and is the “imperial syndrome”. None of the republics did not hurt “imperial syndrome”

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: It’s a message from The Netherlands: Parliament rejected the abolition of the ratification of the agreement on association with Ukraine. That is, the government decided to give more time to find a reasonable solution. Ukraine, of course, is a positive signal.

I understand that in the Netherlands sensitive issue – relations with Ukraine because of the crash, which flew from the Netherlands, and Dutch citizens. Ivan, what is the version of the political elite of Ukraine on this tragedy?

Ivan Krulko: There is plenty of evidence, including from the Dutch authorities and law enforcement agencies that the aircraft Malaysia Airlines was shot down over the territory of Ukraine from the Russian “Buka”. They ruled the Russian soldiers of regular troops, who arrived in Ukraine just to perform a specific task – to bring down the plane. However, they were not shot down the plane, which is planned, but it is another question. There are already court must dot all the “i”.

After this incident, the Netherlands have changed dramatically attitude to the war, which took place at the Donbass. If the Netherlands had previously been opposed to sanctions against Russia, after being knocked down “Boeing” Malaysian airlines, Holland immediately became one of the countries that support sanctions against Russia. Despite the fact that the Netherlands was third rate in the European Union among the countries that have the greatest commercial potential, and relations with the Russian Federation. This is one point.

The second point. The referendum, which took place in the Netherlands, was not a referendum against Ukraine. There have been quite other factors. This is the migrant crisis, and the crisis in Europe and the Euro-skeptics, who in the European Union have a fairly strong position. A lot of things happened in a tangle. And fatigue results we have seen in the referendum.

Perhaps tomorrow we will hear positive news from the European Commission, which is still planning to introduce a bill that the Ukrainians got a visa-free regime with the EU. That’s good news. The Association Agreement is valid, the free trade zone of action – and this is also good news for Ukraine. As for the referendum … I do not know how to show it in Russia, but in Ukraine to it are absolutely calm. We believe that Ukraine is moving towards Europe, and the results of the referendum, which is an advisory and optional, will not have a serious factor to change our course towards European integration and changes in the EU attitude towards Ukraine.

Vladimir Kara-Murza, a senior: Destiny Hope Savchenko drew attention to the subject of Russian political prisoners, the human rights situation. If, God forbid, it will all end favorably, whether to do with a vengeance the fate of Russian political prisoners, such as Sergei Udaltsov?

Lev Ponomaryov: Unfortunately, the number of political prisoners in Russia increases. And there are a whole new reason, a new article in which they are put. For example, Ildar Dadin became a political prisoner. A new article has just started work, the precedent was created. Put people arbitrarily punished, fined for “likes” on the Internet. And if it continues, it will create a practice. And for the “likes” do not put people in Moscow and in the Russian regions. And then it will gradually come to Moscow. Keep in mind, this is the thousands of prisoners. Therefore, the trend is very dangerous. And society must somehow rouse herself.

Sourse, 19/04/2016