Lugansk: dividing the land

Ukrainian Donbass – between the cancellation of the so-called elections and the preparations for the new electoral process … But today we talk about the Luhansk region. In the studio of Radio Liberty in Kiev – the human rights activist, former MP of the USSR, Chairman of the Board of the Ukrainian Helsinki Human Rights Union , Nikolai Kozyrev, and editor in chief of Lugansk “real newspaper” Andrey Dikhtyarenko.

Nikolai Kozyrev: I am in constant contact with their friends, who live in Lugansk, in particular, in the Red Ray. People who can think, in complete confusion, first, because of their external attributes of quasi – LC – all being strengthened. On the other hand, everyone understands that the “New Russia” the original draft, obviously, will not take place, it all collapsed. I am told that the majority of people waiting for Putin: “Putin will come, we will survive these temporary difficulties, it will be better due to the fact that Russia will be with us, and we with Russia.”

Vitaly Portnikov: If this view really is massive, then the question arises, how will that same reintegration, which speak today not only in Kiev, in Berlin, in Paris, but also in Moscow?

Andrew Dikhtyarenko:A lot of talking to people who stayed in the territory (there are journalists who secretly work for me), I noticed that the two points of view prevail. The first – a radical pro-Russian, it is now the opposition under the rule of the LC as a moderate course that was necessarily taken the tip of the separatists, suits far not all. This so-called “internal war party”, which says that “we must integrate into Russia to the bitter end.” But the majority of the population (and that was very well played by local so-called politicians, who get through this room to maneuver) is configured very simply, “bad peace is better than a good quarrel, no matter who we this world will provide, if Russian – excellent, if Ukraine, as Ukraine, if not, we exist in a “gray zone”

People are very tired, very exhausted by the last war, and the desire to take a break from shocks overrides any mood, any geopolitical aspirations. But there are, however, other factors – people do not want to lose. Very many of my respondents say: “Well, we still do this step, crossed the line, our grandparents went to the so-called referendum, what to do now, we can not just give up on themselves last.”

Vitaly Portnikov: Do you think that there is a fault between the part of the Luhansk region, which is now under the control of the LC, and that part which remained under Ukrainian control, which in most of these events did not occur?

Nikolai Kozyrev: This fault exists, including the mental order. There are so many reasonable pro-Ukrainian people, they just can not leave for a variety of family reasons, can not leave their home, possessions, give it to plunder. You know, among the intelligentsia (in the words of Solzhenitsyn, “smatterers”) operates a very important factor, which can be called a syndrome of a bad conscience. They have done much to this war and this situation has come, and now they have to drive for self-justification inward unconscious guilt and to rely on formal authority: whether or not, but it will be better, not so bad now. Mental fracture determines a lot.

With regard to the institutional fracture (which we can only talk in a broad context and elections, and legislation, and the policies of our government, and Minsk, and Paris, and so on), it is important to bear in mind that the establishment of a formal kvazivlasti institutions no matter what already exists, and the mechanism of public work there. Works Council of the so-called “Luhansk People’s Republic”, runs the government, decisions are made more or less money is paid and so on. Lugansk region, occupied and not occupied – it is actually the two regions, which are now difficult to reconcile it in the mental and institutional plan.

Vitaly Portnikov: What do you think, Andrew, elections will be held in the Ukrainian legislation in the so-called LC, or this is just another desire to buy time to consolidate those quasi-governmental institutions that are planted there, with the support of Moscow?

Andrew Dikhtyarenko: The top of the LC is well aware that now the government can get away from their hands if elections are held at least partially by the Ukrainian legislation, and most importantly, in a competitive environment. Now they have so profitable there were circumstances that they can preserve their power, virtually unchallenged rights to the territory. The announcement was made recently Liovochkin that, in principle, the opposition bloc could come to this territory, to participate in the elections, as well as other parties who did not support the ATO. Separatists have repeatedly said that they are willing to put into this territory in the election campaign the forces that are not supported by the ATU. But, I think of these forces is enough to crush these separatists did not even politically.

A lot can speak about the fusion of, the merger of the old political elite, Lugansk new. Even at a personal level people who are at the head of the formations mentioned by Nikolai Kuzmich, lose, they will go into the shadows, because they are weaker. In fact, strong players are now in Ukraine, many of them can not wait, when they return to their businesses, Copanca, businesses and so on. Even this factor can greatly hinder the process of reintegration. Anyway, over the half year, a new generation of predators who do not want to part with their booty.

Vitaly Portnikov: Is it true the allegation that the Lugansk region was the domain of the former head of the parliamentary faction ofthe Party of Regions Aleksandra Efremova , and that part of it which is now under the control of the LC, and has remained to this patrimony?

Nikolai Kozyrev: Yes, it’s true. All previous years of Donbass, in essence, was the birthplace of the Mafia, which has long existed in the area, and with the arrival times to power Yanukovych, she won the all-Ukrainian position, bend under him all the power and thus has built its enrichment system. Of course, there are forces, first of all, Russia’s influence, perhaps not directly related to the financial, property things that are controlled by representatives of the Party of Regions, Political Department of the mafia. Nevertheless, it is.

In addition, and on a non-occupied territory of Lugansk region in some areas it is not only a very strongly felt the impact of themselves representatives of the Party of Regions, administrative and political agents and players, but also public institutions, administrative authority, police, prosecutors, courts and all the rest is largely located in the service of the old oligarchic order forces. Thus, the risk of elections, not only in the occupied territories, but also in the rest of the Lugansk region is also quite strong in terms of loss of democratic forces and strengthen the position of the opposition bloc , the former Party of Regions.

Vitaly Portnikov: If you can not spend the decriminalization of Ukrainian territory, where the hope is that it can hold on to the territory that became the reserve lumpen revolution?

Andrey Dihtyarenko: There actually is the reason that it is Donbass, part of Lugansk and Donetsk regions become like the separatist republics, first joined this creeping occupation from gebeshenogo Kremlin regime. The reason is that there were not as strong legal state institutions, how strong were the shady criminal connection. It is no secret that the same gunmen were supplied by the propaganda channels through the windows at the borders, who organized the Ukrainian border guards, trains with weapons at the very beginning of the war there were. I do not exclude that in the future these lesions can occur in other areas.

Recipe combat such kvaziobrazovaniyami, kvaziraspadom, creeping occupation – after all, first and foremost, to establish a clear, strong, legal structure of government, which we have, in my opinion, did not exist. The fact that we got a half years ago in the Lugansk and Donetsk – a very eloquent proof of this.

Vitaly Portnikov: I wonder more. Now they say that just would have been better if in the Donetsk and Lugansk regions came former oligarchs, they would be there established order, if the reintegration process would help to get rid of all the new figures which appeared there, from all militias.

Andrew Dikhtyarenko: Oligarchs can not create legitimate governments – it is not their job. Their task – to extort money, to make a profit in any situation. Just profit easiest to get in troubled waters, where it is possible to circumvent any public institutions, any device, laws, taxes. Unfortunately, in this situation, the oligarchs can not possibly be a stabilizing factor.

Nikolai Kozyrev: Organization of the life that is going on there – it’s all part of Putin’s plan. If Putin it will be necessary, then it can happen, if not, it will not happen. If only the Russian mafia in the pipe and the Mafia to Ukrainian pipe will agree, then over the Donbas, anything is possible, and even some of its revival. But now it is possible to reason abstractly.

Vitaly Portnikov: A society is there at all?

Nikolai Kozyrev: If we keep in mind the civil society, of course not.

Andrew Dikhtyarenko: Oddly enough, even in the face of military totalitarianism within the so-called “Luhansk People’s Republic” constantly rages some polupsevdopoliticheskaya struggle with which is necessary to understand by the separatists.

Nikolai Kozyrev: This is the essential question. For example, I understand by civil society society of citizens. A citizen – is, above all, the owner. Moreover, it is desirable that it was a citizen who has accumulated the family property, and then he – a stand-alone entity that is almost independent of the government or depend on it as little as possible – then it is civil society. Of course, there are lots of people who are somehow ready to actively promote and consolidate certain processes within certain structures can be public, but it is still protograzhdanskoe society.

Vitaly Portnikov: recognize that the struggle against each other: relatively speaking, Ephraim with Tikhonov , Plotnitsky with the now deceased Brain . But it’s just a struggle for thieves to sit at a certain flow.

Andrew Dikhtyarenko:The problem is that in addition to militants who are “caliphs for an hour,” the leaders of the local groups, there are ordinary people who are under a certain pressure from propaganda. I know this firsthand: Now in Lugansk proud of the fact that they – the capital of the republic. That is, people are starting to build some kind of inner world and its system of values ​​on the basis of what happened. Existing institutions that may be considered kvaziinstitutami, peaceful life (now there do not shoot), in my opinion, create the prerequisites to the fact that, if this situation will can (and I’m afraid that this is happening in spite of all the Minsk talks, etc.) the local communities, local associations of people farther away, the more will feel themselves independent of the other in Ukraine will be able to build some kind of a world more like a Russian. Lugansk and Donetsk can actually become separate republics. While this did not happen, but such a danger exists.

Vitaly Portnikov: Maybe other Ukraine to do something to at least slow down the process, if not reverse it?

Nikolai Kozyrev: If you continue the existing policy is now aimed at pacification and the legalization of certain authorities in the occupied part, then nothing good will. They will be issued in certain existing institutions, but for both parties is the worst-case scenario in the sense that we “freeze” the situation for an indefinite period. Therefore, to predict something, to build some sort of linear logic from today until “X hour” – I think this is an illusion.

Vitaly Portnikov: I want to ask you about the fate of displaced persons. You both left the Luhansk region, and these people do not even hundreds of thousands, and a half million. What will happen to these people if the situation will preserve? They will find their place here in other regions of Ukraine, and it is hoped that they will ever return home? If you go back, in what capacity and how comfortable they feel with their compatriots, who all lived in the separatist enclaves?

Andrew Dikhtyarenko:It’s really very sensitive issue. In the local elections, which are prepared in Ukraine, migrants can not vote either in their native land, because it is occupied by separatists, nor in areas where they are now. We talked about civil society, about feeling citizens … It has just this feeling. Legally moved to Ukraine and a half million are officially registered people who chose Ukraine for ideological, political reasons, because they would not be part of the “Russian world”. They were ready to abandon their homes but retain a sense of themselves as citizens. Unfortunately, the Ukrainian government does very little to strengthen migrants in this sense. Much has been said that “we are ready to support you, we will do everything to make you moved back”

I personally like luganchanina, who was a house there, very afraid of this issue. I can not imagine how can journalists who are forced to go there, to be side by side with the advocates, who served these regimes and remained there. How can live on the same street as the so-called militias who fought in the battalion “Batman,” “Dawn” and so on, along with the “aydarovtsami”? By the way, a lot of Luhansk were in the same battalion “Aidar” and “Lugansk-1.” Submit it now, there is absolutely no way. I am afraid that we are laying a huge field of conflict.

Nikolai Kozyrev: The situation with immigrants (they are called “temporarily displaced persons”) outrageously dramatic and tragic. Broken fortune and family relationships, loss of property, loss of employment, traditional way of life – all of this drama and tragedy of vast numbers of people. Further developments depend on whether the authority, whether it will do the basic things come round, which has not yet been done, and did not seem to understand that they need to do. The most important thing: we need social integration of people who are left in the local community (community). He released a special law, but there is not even a chapter or article about the social integration. All – only recipients of humanitarian aid, certain state care – and all.

Но надо даже на основании действующего законодательства провести такую интеграцию, влить их на полном правовом основании в местные громады – тогда мы бы голосовали, а так не голосуем. Я, например, как человек, который занимается правовыми вопросами, уж на этот раз не упущу возможность затеять судебную тяжбу, чтобы отстоять свое конституционное право избирать и быть избранным. Нас лишили права участвовать в избирательном процессе! За это надо сражаться. Я хотел бы призвать и остальных задуматься над тем, как отстоять это право.

Vitaly Portnikov: There are the following hazards: deprived of this right, for example, the place of temporary residence – is the first step, and it may happen that deprive and on a permanent. We still do not know what will take place the so-called local elections in the territories of the so-called DNR and LNR. Even by Ukrainian law, to be adopted, it is unclear whether the right to vote will receive a temporarily displaced persons.

Andrew Dikhtyarenko: Whenever elections are held, there are so-called visiting sites that allow you to vote. I am more than confident that the February 21, even if local elections will take place partly under Ukrainian law, this is not done, it is because of these half million persons are very much spoil the electoral picture separatist and hybrid-opposition politicians. I’m afraid it is just a situation where immigrants were either at home or on the street, neither here nor there, so many suits.

Vitaly Portnikov: Very important story coming months: whether to require the representatives of the so-called DNR and LNR in the negotiations on these elections to have the right to vote, all those who lived in these areas prior to the conflict, or is it that their bottom line is not to vote for those who left.

Nikolai Kozyrev: I do not take, because there is the main issue, which affects all the rest: in which authorities will be elected any MPs?

Vitaly Portnikov: The local councils.

Nikolai Kozyrev: And what is the local council? There also exists a local council Luhansk People’s Republic.

Vitaly Portnikov: It is not constitutional.

Nikolai Kozyrev: So they have their own constitution, its legislation. All this is created there since April, when the People’s Assembly instituted Luhansk Luhansk People’s Republic, and even in the United Nations they turned on the recognition of its international law. Then a referendum on May 11, all this government … It is necessary to cancel. And who is there to accept it?

Vitaly Portnikov: Maybe no one. But there is a city-hero of Moscow, where they can agree to any conditions, if it is in the interests of Russia.

Nikolai Kozyrev: I do not see why they may need it. What issues are now discussing? What there will be political parties, which control the elections, as the electoral commissions will be formed … it is not important, but what we will be elected to any government. Now there is a constitutional conflict (or kvazikonflikt) between our Constitution – and their legislation and constitutional authorities in their kvazikonstitutsii.

Vitaly Portnikov: If the elections take place under Ukrainian law, they will be held in the Ukrainian authorities, the local council Luhansk region.

Nikolai Kozyrev: LC should be canceled.

Vitaly Portnikov: Its no one recognized by the Minsk Agreement.

Nikolai Kozyrev: But there are people who live under these laws.

Andrew Dikhtyarenko: Now even the liberated part of the Lugansk region are choosing local councils, mayors of cities selected, but no one chooses the Lugansk regional council. This body, which is still in effect, most of the deputies were there from the Party of Regions, they exist somewhere, it is unclear where, and to re-elect the body for some reason no one is going.

Vitaly Portnikov: Because there is no holistic Luhansk region.

Andrew Dikhtyarenko: Perhaps for these reasons. But that would be prevented by the quotas in the liberated territory arri new members? This one does not even think. There is a feeling that a legitimate representative body of the Lugansk region is not created just because no one is going to cancel the decision on creation of the national council of Luhansk People’s Republic, and all ready for the fact that the “chosen, now we will be friends with them as semi-autonomy, will continue Lugansk republic, its national council. “

Vitaly Portnikov: I always call to common sense: either the Minsk agreement executed or not.

Andrew Dikhtyarenko: We are talking about that now actually exists in Ukraine. These trends are, unfortunately, contradict the Minsk agreements.

Nikolai Kozyrev: I can not imagine that the elections there could pass on the Ukrainian legislation, because they defended the people’s republic, proud of it … Even if you imagine that on the orders of Putin all be abolished, and the time set back to April of last year, I have lack of imagination on how this can be done, except by military means. On the one hand, the elections can go, even if there political parties (although be allowed Pushilinstated that this should not be, they do not agree with that), but still, this process will give birth to some bastard. And such mongrel form of quasi-educational and popular representation just need to Putin. It will be very good for Putin because it will create exactly the most “frostbitten” Transnistria, and this will contribute to an absolute Russian influence on the processes taking place in Ukraine. And then will the processes that will give rise to internal conflict in Ukraine, and that they required. Putin needs to destroy an independent state of Ukraine. World Putin does not prove anything, but it needs as much as possible convincingly prove to himself and to his electorate that is not a state that Ukraine has the right to an independent state life.

Sourse, 17/10/2015