How to overcome Stalinism and survive Putinism?

With the submission of human rights Vladimir Putin recently signed a decree on setting in Moscow on Prospect Sakharov monument to victims of political repression. Can the public Russian somehow influence the autocratic master of the Kremlin?

How to overcome the experience of the Soviet empire? The Russian Federation will help de-Sovietization of Ukraine?

What to expect today after the Russian intervention in the war in Syria, the occupied Donbass and Crimea?

Discuss historian and TV presenter Nikolai Svanidze and deputy of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, journalist Mustafa Nye .

Transmits Mikhail Sokolov .

Mikhail Sokolov: Today in the Moscow studio of “Radio Liberty” Nikolai Svanidze, a historian, journalist, member of the Human Rights Council under the President of Russia. We’ll talk, probably at the beginning of the historical theme. Vladimir Putin signed a decree on the construction of a memorial to victims of repression, probably this important event. Nicholas, you are happy that the implemented solutions XXII Congress of the CPSU?

Nikolai Svanidze: Yes, of course. I can not say that I just jump, clap your hands, but yes, it’s good, it’s positive, of course.

Mikhail Sokolov: Solovetsky stone what, in fact, were not satisfied? Here there is a memorial monument, his people read the lists of the dead, 30 October will, as usual, to read such a tradition. Why do we need a national memorial to the victims of repression?

Nikolai Svanidze:State memorial necessary that he state. Solovetsky Stone is really good, and because it is a stone, because it has become a symbol, too, of course, but it is not a state – it is for the soul. The state’s position is very important here, because we have a country of the Treasury, from the state position and the state of the position of the first person depends the topic and its perception in many ways. What is the state? The state – is the media. If the state’s official position is such, then it is in this direction will work the federal channels, so it is in this vein, they will adjust our fellow citizens. And if not, they will be adjusted in line with the other or none at all in some. Therefore, the government’s position is important, it is important just to establish and to create a certain public opinion – this is important.

Mikhail Sokolov: Putin once traveled the Butovo firing to the landfill, where he is now a memorial. Something fundamentally changed? Periodically, power rolls one die progressive society, other bones, and at the same time listens but eat. At this time there are common textbooks with an effective manager, something else. Ie one arm signed a decree on the memorial, and at this time there is a process of partial re-Stalinization.

Nikolai Svanidze:Yes, of course, as always we had. So it was under Aleksandre Osvoboditele, and under Alexander III the Peacemaker, and so on, it has always been. So it was under Brezhnev, when the same two trends fought, and now. But it is absolutely convinced that the notorious campaign in Butovo classic, which you mentioned, he has played a considerable positive role. Because President Putin, he has a lot of worries, in addition to purely historical studies. I think he is a man, of course, interested in and read it, but I think that for many years, the topic was on the far periphery of his royal attention. And the fact that his deceased patriarch, God rest his soul, Alexy II, there was still the then Ombudsman Vladimir Petrovich Lukin, two people with absolutely unambiguous views on this subject, they brought him back, show told, explained, that there was, and how many people were killed as were killed, I think it has made an emotional impression on him. If it was not, we have the path re-Stalinization, we would have gone further. In this still does not guarantee this re-Stalinization, because it is largely pragmatic beneficial power.

Mikhail Sokolov: Any power?

Nikolai Svanidze: the current government.

Mikhail Sokolov: The fact of the matter is present KGB authorities.

Nikolai Svanidze: Yes, the current power of the KGB, of course, it is profitable, of course. It is therefore advantageous in the appropriate spirit to a great extent and to educate the people. And the people and happy to try.

Mikhail Sokolov: Worse, perhaps, the people, Nikolai?

Nikolai Svanidze: bad, good, and here it? It is impossible to perceive the people exclusively in black-and-white categories, bad, good, people – it is the people just with their historical tradition known to us, and so on. It is the people who talk all the time about the fact that the most important event in our history – it is a victory in the Great Patriotic War, as head of state and the creator of the victory, respectively, was Iosif Vissarionovich Stalin, and the procedure when it was. Then we now have the main trend, most sold our idea – it’s anti-Westernism and anti-Americanism, and go find more anti-American and anti-Westerners than Stalin. On all sides it is suitable.

Mikhail Sokolov: Although the details are not always so with anti-Westernism and anti-Americanism that has secured, it became an ally of the West, but in terms of technology scared like anything is possible, they buy and so on.

Nikolai Svanidze: Technology plan – yes, has secured, of course, but then you can declare Winston Churchill a great friend of the Soviet people and the Soviet Union.

Mikhail Sokolov: He was ready with Hitler and hell fight.

Nikolai Svanidze: Exactly, who said that if Hitler invaded hell, he formed an alliance with Satan. So he made a covenant with the devil, when Hitler invaded the Soviet Union, he formed an alliance with Stalin. So that the current government benefit-Stalinist tendencies.

But, I repeat, if it were not for this hike in Butovo, if there was no pressure from historians, human rights activists, and so on, from time to time enclose Putin some historical fact and explain their meaning, I think we would We went on this way much more to the place where we are today.

Mikhail Sokolov: I do not know much much more.

Nikolai Svanidze: I assure you, Albert Einstein and his theory of relativity was absolutely right.

Mikhail Sokolov: I do not know. Look, there is a monument, and on the other side of a huge complex of archival documents has been closed recently by special resolution of some special commission. You know that for many, in fact, public awareness documents is often more important than something of iron or copper, that will stand at the intersection of Prospect Sakharov and Garden and Savior street.

Nikolai Svanidze: Есть на эту тему старый анекдот, который не могу воспроизвести в эфире, к сожалению, о бунте в среде девушек легкого поведения: «А что же такое, платят мало?». «Нет». «Кормят плохо?». «Нет». «А в чем дело?». «Ну проститутки, сэр». Вот чекисты, сэр. Вполне определенная ментальность цеховая, здесь никуда не деться. Тем не менее, я повторяю, это может быть чекистская ментальность с радостью детской восторженной по поводу того, сколько народу было порезано, жалко, что мало, как Сталин говорил про Ивана Грозного, упрекал его в излишнем либерализме и мягкости, а может быть так, что преступление, но куда же деваться. Очень плохая позиция, когда об убийце, душегубе говорится: да, убил много народу, но… Вот в русском языке разделительный союз «но» обладает таким свойством: то, что до него, можно забыть, имеет смысл из всего сказанного только то, что говорится после этого слова «но». Но тем не менее, несмотря на все это, конечно, важно, что они понимают, что Сталин был преступником. Дело не в Сталине, который давно сгнил, дело в системе, которую он создал. Ведь те люди, которые сейчас тоскуют и ностальгируют по Сталину, они ностальгируют не лично по Иосифу Виссарионовичу, мало того, в полной мере они возвращения этой системы не хотят, потому что они прекрасно себя чувствуют и никакого желания ночью вздрагивать при звуках автомобиля, останавливающегося у подъезда, у них нет.

Mikhail Sokolov: The more so that there are problems, there is something to come after them. How can we show from time to time in some of the Komi Republic and on Sakhalin, we see some details of the life, which is clearly not legally established.

Nikolai Svanidze: Of course. So, of course, the nomenclature why she sighed under Khrushchev, just breathed in deeply: of course, all the good remains, namely soldering, cottages and so on, and all the bad things, such as sleepless nights waiting for a call on the door, it’s all gone. And now the poor do not want to. Nevertheless, such a passion for well-oiled boots, it is present. It would be much stronger if not for the work of the same human rights, of course, and some impact on the first person. I want to once again remember the Orthodox Church headed by Alexy II, and on that side impact is too.

Mikhail Sokolov: On the Human Rights Council at a meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin kept it somewhere shill. For example, Mr. Fedotov invited him to visit the Memorial Center “Perm-36” in the Perm region, to look at the place of “how to implement the order to preserve the unique museum”. Visit the museum, Mr Putin, there is exposure changed now, there now, as I understand it, is not a museum for those who sat with the victims of terror, but of those who guarded them, turned into a museum of the Gulag workers. And here comes to the president and say, good museum, you have such a museum Gulag workers, honest workers to create the zone, wherever it was.

Nikolai Svanidze: Not really, I guess. He’s there alone does not come, as a rule, he comes to the appropriate place with the appropriate support.

Mikhail Sokolov: There are those who have created this new ‘exposure.

Nikolai Svanidze: When he visits the place where the missiles with nuclear warheads are made, it will be accompanied by Rogozin. If he will come to honor the memory Iosifa Vissarionovicha Stalina, he will be accompanied Prokhanov and Zyuganov. But if he will come all the same, as it is now may look museum “Perm-36”, if he comes back, it will be accompanied by the same Fedotov. And no doubt will be shown some of their dialogue, and Fedotov in place some words for the camera to say in the presence of the president, and the president they would nod his head. This will be important. I called him, too.

Mikhail Sokolov: I just wanted to ask you Mr Putin called for the opening of the Gulag Museum in Moscow in a new building, in my opinion, on October 30 will be.

Nikolai Svanidze: and motivate this invitation.

Mikhail Sokolov: And what are you motivated?

Nikolai Svanidze: I’m motivated, I can repeat word for word, I said: “Vladimir Vladimirovich, we have a country vertical, everyone is looking at the first face so if you come visit this museum on the opening day – this will be a good sign and a good signal.” .

Mikhail Sokolov: He looked at you, Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin, and thought to himself, decided it is not necessary to them, these liberals and Westerners give it a good sign and a good signal.

Nikolai Svanidze: It may well be, and can and will come. Who knows?

Mikhail Sokolov: That is always the hope of re-education or education of the king. Late in the day somehow, age Putin is.

Nikolai Svanidze: No, to bring the king’s late. Nevertheless, the desire to have some way to direct his power opportunities in some positive way. Why do you need to indulge in trying to do this?

We also really vertical and country in any respect to President Putin, his power, his influence on public authorities, public opinion great. So do not try to somehow use it, do not try to some extent for the impact of his fight, in my opinion, it is wrong, unprofessional, irrational.

Mikhail Sokolov: We were joined by Mustafa Nye, a Ukrainian journalist, social activist and the deputy chairman of the faction Block Petro Poroshenko in the Verkhovna Rada. You just wanted to ask what’s going on, how is this de-Sovietization, deleninizatsiya? Some Democratic politicians here in Russia say they have nothing to do there except the monuments to Lenin, there are after all the things and more important.

Mustafa Nayem:In fact, we do have different points of view. The fact that we have over the past two years so strongly felt that the characters, the information and any manifestations of someone else’s ideology or the other ideology are so important to have such a strong influence on the processes in the country, that to neglect such things would be, at a minimum, stupid. Monuments to Lenin – a manifestation of this. For many people this is including the manifestation of our past, which is now directly linked with the Russian Federation. Obviously, it is clear that when we began to die people to die not from traffic accidents, and during the war and the struggle between the two ideologies, someone wanted to Europe, someone insisted that it was the Russian Federation, the it is obvious that any manifestations of enemy destroyed legacies in force, and human emotions, and due to the fact we do not want to be associated with it, and have in common. Therefore, there can not only talk about toppling monuments mechanical or mechanical renaming streets – a civilizational choice. Yes, probably, it would be wise and beautiful, if you read books on history, that we have all these monuments are preserved, embellished or have in some cities wear their shirts, but the reality is that now other emotions, other times, and the people set quite differently.

Mikhail Sokolov: The Communist Party of Ukraine is derived from the political field as the Communist Party, the heir to the repressive Stalinist system, or how unpatriotic, separatist pariah hand Putin in Moscow?

Mustafa Nayem:You know, there really are all very trite and simple. The Communist Party is a legal entity, as well as in Russia all the parties is a legal entity, it was banned due to violation of the Ukrainian legislation, including the Constitution. When we had annexed Crimea, and it was a violation of the territorial integrity of Ukraine, the Communist Party is partially supported. I’m not talking about what their policy positions were theses about foreign policy, about the country itself, its logic of development. In this sense, it was banned as a political organization, just as it was possible to prohibit any other public organization, or to stop it when a natural person. Therefore, there is not prohibited by ideology, there is no ban on ideology. If any other party that appears,

Mikhail Sokolov: Nikolai Karlovich, as you look at what they are doing now in Ukraine for desovietization? Here they are all opened files, the law adopted, that’s monuments clean. Would you like this way for Russia?

Nikolai Svanidze: Ultimately, I do not mind, of course. Not against the opening of the archives, not against the de-Sovietization, of course. In Ukraine, it is easier to do than in Russia, for several reasons. First of all, because Ukraine – not Russia, it was not Ukrainian empire – it was the Russian Empire, Ukraine and never felt the subject of the empire, its owner. Therefore, there is a completely different attitude to the imperial tradition.

Mikhail Sokolov: That is, they decolonization.

Nikolai Svanidze: They are decolonization, for them it is in a patriotic vein, as well as the Poles and the Czechs, Georgians and so on, all who served in the Soviet sphere of influence in one way or another, whether it included the Soviet Union or in the sotsbloka. A totally different attitude to our common history, in Russia it is much more difficult, because in Russian patriotism in a significant number of the population is associated just with the imperial tradition. This benefit in this fertile field for a set of points and the Communist Party of the Russian Federation in particular, and the current government when it selects this field from the Communists. In this regard, Ukraine is easier. But of course, I do not mind what they were doing in this direction.

Mikhail Sokolov: Maybe I had time to ban the Communist Party in Russia?

Nikolai Svanidze: You know, bans, I’m not sure. Now they have once again easy to do, because they think of themselves, and rightly so, in a state of war with Russia. Communists have just what we called the “fifth column”, so it is again to make it easier to convince citizens of the country in a patriotic sense of the ban. For us it was impossible. When it comes, and it came in 1986, as we are mindful of a possible ban on the Communist Party, I believe that it was fraught with a coup d’etat.

Mikhail Sokolov: Please tell me, now there is a kind of suspension of hostilities, have a frozen conflict, Vladimir Putin switched to the new geopolitical markets, sells Russia as a party to the conflict in Syria. You have hope that the peace process will come to Ukraine?

Mustafa Nye: I think it’s necessary to proceed not from what is happening in terms of the mechanical actions that have applications, suspended the war and so on, and from the state, as the country feels. A brother in the geopolitical sense, that Ukraine should settle down. But we have to understand: the 40 million population, which feels and rightly feels humiliated. We believe indeed that we have selected a piece of our territory, we believe that our boys were killed there in vain. Do not we started this war, we are not attacked, invaded our territory. Moreover, it now appears that the conditions for that in our territory was not a war, we have to go on some concessions in other parts of the country, in the Donbas and in the Crimea. In this sense, the war is not over.

The war will go exactly as long until it is restored to the emotional state, I’m not talking about elementary return of territories, the withdrawal of troops and border control. If all this happens, it will continue to the next round – this Crimea. So I do not think that now we should talk about a cessation of hostilities. And the second point that needs to be very well understood. The fact that the fighting in Syria, Russia decides to geopolitical problems, but there is a caveat – Ukraine is on its borders, and it is not a small country, which will be silent. Moreover, those sentiments that are now there, can already give us grounds to say that there will be no so-called “fifth column”, there will be no pro-Russian government, such as it did with Kokoity. There will continue to the Ukrainian government, permanent Ukrainian president and mood here will be such, they can not break. This means that for each of the next president, prime minister, defense minister and the parliament of the Crimea questions Donbass as long as they are in this state – it is a challenge. If they will not take a definitive position on the fact that these territories should be liberated, returned to Ukraine, they will have the political crisis and problems. This means that a permanent state of war will last exactly as long until it is returned to the status quo. So I do not think we can talk about the end of the war. Donbass as long as they are in this state – it is a challenge. If they will not take a definitive position on the fact that these territories should be liberated, returned to Ukraine, they will have the political crisis and problems. This means that a permanent state of war will last exactly as long until it is returned to the status quo. So I do not think we can talk about the end of the war. Donbass as long as they are in this state – it is a challenge. If they will not take a definitive position on the fact that these territories should be liberated, returned to Ukraine, they will have the political crisis and problems. This means that a permanent state of war will last exactly as long until it is returned to the status quo. So I do not think we can talk about the end of the war.

Moreover, I think that in the Russian Federation understands all that as soon as the war in the Donbass, the question arises with the Crimea, we will raise. Now, under the pressure of deaths in the Donetsk and Lugansk, Crimea theme of the flow of information is objectively receded into the background, but it’s there. People who are fighting in the Donbass, as soon as they become vacant, they will go to the Crimea – is obvious. We can close our eyes or turn a blind eye, but it will happen sooner or later.

Mikhail Sokolov: Nikolai Karlovich, it turns out, created a system that will reproduce and re-Stalinization, and repressive Putin regime precisely because of this “eternal” war with Ukraine, even if Moscow does not want to call it a war. That is so, is it necessary to stop the war with Ukraine, recover stolen to carry out at least some political reforms in Russia. How is this possible?

Nikolai Svanidze: It is ultimately correct, but you threw in one bag.

Mikhail Sokolov: Time is short.

Nikolai Svanidze: In my opinion, these things are somewhat different. They are united by this: the war in Ukraine, a war, let the cold, it is obvious which takes place in reality, the West creates a feeling of total militarism, the general atmosphere in which the re-Stalinization, and some repressive tendencies quite naturally and organically. In this respect, the fact that you are in total abandoned bag – this is true, but nevertheless, they are different things. For example, rubble on the one hand, the Donbas, on the other – it’s not a contradiction. You can fight in the Donbass, and at the same time to protect of Butovo.

Mikhail Sokolov: In the Donbas was established that, remember: the cellars of the NKVD name some SMERSH, all repressive practices of Stalinism came in the so-called DNR and LNR.

Nikolai Svanidze: Right. But our position is official: guys, we do not have to do with it.

Mikhail Sokolov: Lying learned, and Vladimir Putin has learned.

Nikolai Svanidze: Do not we there yet cellars dig, to throw all – it’s them. A “goryachatsya guys, but in the same war.” Here is our official position. Same as in the negotiations in Minsk or Paris: “guys, we can not push them, we influence them at all do not have, that you talk to them.”

I repeat again that what is happening now and in Donbass, which is now frozen situation is largely, but not fused in my opinion Putin and Syria – are all ultimately our opposition to elements of the West. In the eyes of public opinion it is this point all the time is accented by our propaganda – it is in line with our opposition to the West. But as opposition to the West is not a geographical sense, but I would say not even a political and ideological, of course, in this sense, the West – the Liberals, the West – the institutions, the West – the primacy of human rights over the rights of the state and not vice versa . And we have the opposite: we have the right to state, we have a popular leader, we Autocracy, Orthodoxy, and nationality, as understood by the author of this triad Sergey Semenovich Uvarov, who said, that our nation is absolute obedience to autocracy. That’s our case.

Mikhail Sokolov: Is there a possibility that in the public opinion of Russia Ukraine will look better than it is now? I understand very powerful propaganda waged against you, the word “Independence” made abusive efforts of Russian television. But really I hear more, for example, that the West felt irritated by the lack of real reform, decisive leaders, any action in Ukraine. I understand the monuments removed easily, and spend the denationalization and privatization of the economy and society is much more complicated. It may happen that you will have to point the finger, as some Moldova when six pro-Western liberal coalition was in power, and now people began to take to the streets to protest, because the coalition has done little for the people.

Mustafa Nayem: There are two aspects. Firstly, with regard to the image of Ukraine in Russia. You have to understand who is interested in the fact that the image of Ukraine in Russia has become better. Now I do not see any interested parties in Russia and in Ukraine, not what not to do not think about it, there is no such problem. As for what you say on the current government and the reforms that are taking place in the country, yes, there are problems, they should recognize.

Another question. If you compare all the countries in which there was a change, which is for us an example of a kind of conditional – Estonia, Latvia, in these countries after the revolutionary events of the first government, and were not as reformers. This does not mean that we should learn from them, but it seems to me that now is important at all other factor, it is now important progressive and consistent movement in that direction and in the direction that we have chosen on the Maidan, as it were, it seemed right or wrong it’s value was. Many things have been formed then. And in this sense, the Ukrainian society and the government under the pressure of society is this way. Yes, it’s slow, but it’s wrong, but no one folds the table and says: no, now this is not going to be like this. It will be the way people want. The power is now subordinated to the community – this is a very important point. Unfortunately, we have not received such a radical change and decisive leader, who went for the society, now the society is power, there is a problem, but society is sufficiently conscious. As for whether they will point a finger, I do not think so. From what I see in the center of this story, the fact that I am now MP and I understand what is happening inside, irreversible things, irreversible processes, which will not allow to go back. Yes, it does not mean that it is the key to moving forward, even determines the speed of the movement, but back rollback can not be, because people very quickly get used to the good. And the fear of what would happen if the government suddenly wants to drastically change the situation against the will of the society, there is already all the officials, who came to power today. Therefore, it is a matter of time. Yes, time is working against us, yes, there is a war, but the fact that we are moving in the right direction, and that direction will be maintained and the public, and the power, I have no doubt.

Mikhail Sokolov: In Russia, once a favorite Nikolai Svanidze Anatoly Chubais said that we have hammered the nail in the coffin of communism and so on, but also Communism came out, and Nazism came out, and all these Stalinist systems got out, it turned out that no matter what not guaranteed by a creeping coup. Here’s this fear you do not have any, that will be a new Yanukovych, some populist?

Mustafa Nayem:Of course, there is always a risk. Another question. What happened in Ukraine, fortunately, happened at the turn of generations. Those people who stood in the “orange” Maidan in 2004, they were 15-20, 25, now they are already 30-35 years, these people are quite well aware of the past 10 years, that is a setback, enough to understand what a disappointment and they still have a lot of strength and faith in the future, to turn the system from within. Now power and government offices in Ukraine, are enriched with a huge number of young people in their blood are other values, another way of looking at things. This does not mean that this is the ideal that we pictured, but it is different – it is certainly not a return to the despotic regime, not exactly a return to some kind of primacy of the state over the human values, the system over the individual. I do not believe that we can roll back the other way. Another question is that to what happened in Russia, needed a lot of money. Mode, which is set in Russia, it needs a recharge. The state has the possibility to bribe law enforcement agencies and to maintain this level and stress and pressure on society. In Ukraine there is no such money is elementary, and it can be our good, that we have no such oil substrate, which would allow any government, come and suppress completely the will of all law enforcement, anti-corruption bodies and put the company in a certain angle. In this sense, in the Ukraine is easier and I think that such a radical return, as it was in Russia after Yeltsin’s impossible. The state has the possibility to bribe law enforcement agencies and to maintain this level and stress and pressure on society. In Ukraine there is no such money is elementary, and it can be our good, that we have no such oil substrate, which would allow any government, come and suppress completely the will of all law enforcement, anti-corruption bodies and put the company in a certain angle. In this sense, in the Ukraine is easier and I think that such a radical return, as it was in Russia after Yeltsin’s impossible. The state has the possibility to bribe law enforcement agencies and to maintain this level and stress and pressure on society. In Ukraine there is no such money is elementary, and it can be our good, that we have no such oil substrate, which would allow any government, come and suppress completely the will of all law enforcement, anti-corruption bodies and put the company in a certain angle. In this sense, in the Ukraine is easier and I think that such a radical return, as it was in Russia after Yeltsin’s impossible.

Mikhail Sokolov: Maybe in Russia people who went once to Bolotnaya unsuccessfully, to return to the area, ask questions of power and the war in Ukraine, and about the current situation of economic, which is deteriorating, including the direct actions of the authorities and the Kremlin ? The crisis with the fall of 4% of GDP is created artificially, it acts on the international scene.

Nikolai Svanidze: I must say that the latter thesis. The crisis has created, you can say how artificially, but does not act on the international scene, the action in the international arena it catalyzed.

Mikhail Sokolov: Sanctions where did? There was no need to attack Ukraine.

Nikolai Svanidze: The crisis was not created by sanctions.

Mikhail Sokolov: In part, yes.

Nikolai Svanidze: In small part, economists say.

Mikhail Sokolov: The whole world is slowly growing, and Russia falls.

Nikolai Svanidze: That’s right, who argues – it is a crisis.

Mikhail Sokolov: The crisis in Russia, the crisis of the system.

Nikolai Svanidze: That’s – the system crisis and not a crisis created by the sanctions. This crisis is structural, and it started before any sanctions to Ukraine, to igil. It started because of the very severe imbalances in our economy, because of the imbalance in our political system. If you were right, it would be easier to deal. The crisis deeper, its origin is deeper than foreign policy and sanctions.

Of course, sanctions, both known boots Tikhon in “12 chairs”, which ozonized air is not old stood in the corner, but the smell in the main lodge was, as we know, from new. So here we have the main odor of the structure of our economic and political sanctions, of course, is amplified. But coming back, so by itself out of the Ukraine and even withdrawal from the sanctions if they will be canceled, even the surge in oil prices over $ 100 per barrel, according to economists, will not save our economy from the crisis. In order to save her from this, it is necessary to rebuild the economy and our entire political system.

Mikhail Sokolov: Who will rebuild it?

Nikolai Svanidze: It is a different matter.

Mikhail Sokolov: Maybe young people, both in Ukraine?

Nikolai Svanidze: Going back to the first part of your thesis about that, is it possible to return to the marsh people back to the swamp, yes, when the dust settles propaganda and pseudo-patriotic, associated with the same Ukraine, she was really little by little, according to sociologists, precipitates, people bored include iron and see it, Ukraine, Ukraine.

Mikhail Sokolov: Now Syria will see.

Nikolai Svanidze: Exactly, which is now changed to Syria, Syria, Syria. I have the feeling that we are living in the Donbass or in Kiev, little in Washington, but not in Russia, and now still a little bit in Damascus, but again, not in Russia. People live in Russia, they have refrigerators in Russia, stores them in Russia, housing them in Russia, all in Russian. Little by little the topic of our foreign policy victories, especially if victory is not as majestic, she recedes into the background, at the forefront every day, like all the people on earth, everyday life. And in this case, if the dust settles, but the government will do a lot to keep it settled.

Because the authorities have two options: either to change the situation, what it is, I’m here with you agree, she can not imagine under what conditions can go, I now these conditions do not see, in principle, because these conditions are associated with the country’s transfer with manual control on another form, which means the weakening of their power. Power to weaken the power will not go.

Mikhail Sokolov: The Russian authorities – is Putin. Putin did not go?

Nikolai Svanidze: Putin – is the first person who will not go, I do not see these options right now. So you will need to distract people from the circumstances of their inner life.

Mikhail Sokolov: Syria – a red herring?

Nikolai Svanidze: Syria is a red herring to a large extent, not only that, it is a separate issue, but it is largely a continuation of the distraction. Because a diversion called “Ukraine” has its distracting power is gone, just tired, you need something new, and jumped like a bee from flower to flower, not dososav previous, jumped to the next. What will be the next one? I do not know. May be returning to Ukraine.

Mikhail Sokolov: But then jumped from flower to flower, still in the skipping that – switching from the Ukraine and the Donbass, from the war there is a real war with the world’s evil, or competition in the struggle with the West, that the West there have their own interests, let’s support the Syrian opposition, and Russia will support his son of the dictator Assad?

Nikolai Svanidze: Here’s the thing, in my opinion, to answer exactly to your question is unlikely that anyone will be able to, so we are only able to talk out loud. The fact that the decisions are now taken, starting from the Crimea, they are largely emotional, I think. In general, when the autocratic power, and now we have the power undoubtedly autocratic when institutions do not work when the examination is largely does not work, because the examination of the same institutional, even when the decision elderly Brezhnev Politburo to send troops to Afghanistan, and then some institutions in the literal sense, academic institutions, which were engaged with this problem, trying to influence the four decision-makers.

Mikhail Sokolov: Half discussed.

Nikolai Svanidze: Brezhnev, Ustinov, Gromyko, Andropov tried to influence Arbatov, director of the Institute of USA and Canada, Primakov, all the experts who understood that this climb two legs in a Muslim country, said: do not, guys. They did not listen, but at least the impact of attempts have been.

Now in connection with the Crimea, Donbass, even with attempts, as far as I know, it was not, and the decision taken without even four people, but in fact one. All such decisions are made by one person, they are taken absolutely no account of the expert, as I understand it, in any case, the expert recommendations that contradict the already established position of this person.

Mikhail Sokolov: It just might be on the table do not get it?

Nikolai Svanidze: It may or may not fall on the table, I do not know. These are all consequences of the autocratic form of government. Therefore, our first person, what guided by ideas, goals, objectives, when taking any decision, I climb to Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin inside his cranium can not. So here you can guess what was meant.

Mikhail Sokolov: In Syria, we see some practice, Russia is accused of hitting her focus is not on the so-called Islamic State, and some other opposition groups. So there are the facts?

Nikolai Svanidze: That is quite natural. Because our main task is not to remove the bombing LIH, which is impossible, no matter how brandished his sword our valiant generals, no matter what they say to Putin, it is obvious that they and he are experienced, professional and sanity to understand that if the turnip, the Americans pulled, pulled, not pulled from the air, there is no reason to believe that we draw out its much smaller force and are not comparable to a smaller unit of time. So the problem is not this.

Mikhail Sokolov: So the task of pure propaganda. One commentator suggested, “Putin’s task as much as possible to ignite war in time for the time of publication of the Donbas shot down over” Boeing report “by 13 October.”

Nikolai Svanidze: In my opinion, this is conspiracy theories, which is usually characteristic of our advocates, in this case, typical of others. I do not see a direct connection. This is a terrible public relations propaganda threat that hangs over us – materials on the downed “Boeing”, but I do not see the extent to which Syria is connected with this topic, I think that there have been other themes. I think this is an attempt of Putin to draw attention to themselves as strong, the real action of the global player. This is an attempt to save Bashar Assad, not to destroy the LIH, by the way, we do not actually hide and save the “ordinary” Bashar al-Assad.

Mikhail Sokolov: At the military base in the Mediterranean.

Nikolai Svanidze: At the military base, just to have us there was a man, just because he’s ours.

Mikhail Sokolov: To what extent is it a Russian – is a separate issue. Syria turned the Soviet Union and was very expensive.

Nikolai Svanidze: The main thing is that we think so. It is known that his father came here and said he was not leaving here without weapons worth billions of dollars. Someone who twists – is another question, tail dog, of course. Nevertheless, we believe that he is our guy, so it protects and does not give it an insult to the West. Let all our people see that we are their offense did not give the West. We globally participate in the big game and do not concede – that’s the goal.

Mikhail Sokolov: Kadyrov said that he wants to do some fighting, offers a ground operation. Do not you think that it acts proactively, knows something suspects?

Nikolai Svanidze: No, I do not. It seems to me that this is his style, Ramzan Akhmatovich. He always acts ahead of the curve, but not because I knew something or suspected, but because his style is proactive. I had a childhood favorite cartoon, “Golden Antelope” luxury brand cartoon, there at the Raja was the executioner, healthy bull curve huge sword, which is just that, little raja whom askance look, the executioner coming to the Raja and said: “Excuse me, I cut off his head. ” Here he is a performer. Ramzan Kadyrov always offers someone beheaded.

Mikhail Sokolov: In the case of the murder of Nemtsov also have a strong suspicion that his people could jump ahead.

Nikolai Svanidze: There are suspicions that they could jump ahead.

Mikhail Sokolov: So it’s not a joke, not a “Golden antelope”.

Nikolai Svanidze: And here is the joke? If I cite the example of the cartoon – it does not mean that this is a joke, I just for clarity. In our real life butchers and head cut really is not cartoonish.

Murder Nemtsov, of course, leads to some thoughts, perhaps these people would like Big Daddy. Liked or not – is another question. But Kadyrov offers all the time, President Putin as an artist – it certainly.

And at some point, Putin could take advantage of. For example, in regard to Syria, if the need to protect a military base, and for this we need the Marines. I recall that, Ramzan Kadyrov always positioned itself as an infantryman Putin. If necessary the palisade of Russian bayonets, Russian bayonets around the head of Bashar Assad, because from the air to protect it is not always possible, take another and land is probably something that role can perform Chechen fighters Ramzan Kadyrov, simply because they are ready, because that they will not write human rights defenders and because they are Muslims.

Mikhail Sokolov: Yes, the Circassian is a tradition, among other things.

Nikolai Svanidze: This “Wild Division”.

Mikhail Sokolov: I would like to talk more about Russian society. How Russian society is weakly imagine the dangers that occur in connection with the Syrian war, in connection with the Ukrainian war? A feeling that there is no force capable of assessing these risks. Or are we just out of the chorus, which, sorry, on your television constantly sounds Kurginyan and others, we simply do not hear those voices?

Nikolai Svanidze: Voices Of course, society does not hear, of course. Society has long offered a completely uncontested assessment of what is happening in the country and in the world, absolutely no alternative. And the society in this regard, it is helpless, it is deprived of the opportunity to make the right choice. Because it’s just dripping on the brain subcortex and the other position is simply impossible.

Mikhail Sokolov: Meets the Human Rights Council, the only concern that has been expressed in connection with the participation of the Russian military in Syria, it is due to the fact that the status of military personnel will be established by a special law, or is not installed. Somehow too small for the representatives of the progressive public.

Nikolai Svanidze: You know, I’m not ready to accept all the criticisms that apply to all institutions and bodies of our government, all social, political and public organizations exclusively about the Human Rights Council. It can not replace each and everything. When the Council of the Russian Federation Federal Assembly Federation for 10 minutes decided the resolution in accordance with the Constitution, Article 102, paragraph D, of the resolution of the President of warfare military outside the territory of Russia, without asking a single question, what kind of operation, which targets operations , what terms the operation, what the transaction price, which will be the case if the operation would be inefficient, no question.

Mikhail Sokolov: Nicholas, but this one did not choose the body, you know very well, it is absolutely one hundred percent designated body. So he is.

Nikolai Svanidze: It is a constitutional body.

Mikhail Sokolov: I suspect that if the Duma gave consent for all its present monstrous entity, where the “United Front for Putin”, where there would be a few MPs who have asked these questions.

Nikolay Svanidze: We even know their names. Nevertheless, before the Duma is not reached.

Mikhail Sokolov: Why blame the Federation Council?

Nikolai Svanidze: I do not swear, he’s Federation Council.

Mikhail Sokolov: The Human Rights Council, of course, not the Federation Council, does not solve anything, but on the other hand there are some sound voices.

Nikolai Svanidze: They’re sound. Here before you is a printout, and you know that there are different themes voice sounded.

Mikhail Sokolov: too small threads.

Nikolai Svanidze: Well, excuse me, to blame.

Mikhail Sokolov: Let’s ask Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin question: let pomiluem who left economist Sergei Guriev, a good man. What the president says: yes, he ran away, but no one claims to it does not impose, let him come back. Good result?

Nikolai Svanidze: Good.

Mikhail Sokolov: Then ask about planted in Kostroma was a criminal case the leader of the St. Petersburg branch of Parnassus Andrei Pivovarov, this president said, he gave a bribe and so on. He is telling the truth in your eyes.

Nikolai Svanidze: In Syria you want? Suppose gets Fedotov, Alekseeva, yours truly does not matter, and they say, tell us about Syria. He was in for three minutes to say what he has to say on this subject Peskov, or Lavrov, or himself. That from this change? On the contrary, it will look totally different, and you have said to me today: What are you so puts Nikolai Karlovich?

Mikhail Sokolov: It depends on what you would say, Nikolai Karlovich.

Nikolai Svanidze: And what can we say? In accordance with the Constitution of the Russian Federation at the invitation of the president of Syria – he does all this tell.

Mikhail Sokolov: And you told him about Afghanistan.

Nikolai Svanidze: He will say: but where is Afghanistan? Afghanistan was under the Soviet Union, there is a completely different way decisions are made, and we have the Federation Council. He is not born this morning, just like you and me. Therefore, nothing would this not work effectively, I assure you.

Mikhail Sokolov: I think these surrogate agencies, in which you enter, they may, however, at least to influence public opinion.

Nikolai Svanidze: Let us abolish surrogate bodies. Shame on you, do not walk in the counsel of the wicked. It’s a shame to cancel.

Mikhail Sokolov: I understand your irony. After all, you talked about the press, it was interesting. Leonid said Nikitinsky brilliant speech: money spent on PR governors, even spend on the independent press.

Nikolai Svanidze: Good Lenya Nikitinsky, I supported him there. That’s a plus.

Mikhail Sokolov: You offer the power to carve itself, away from them one of the tools vertical information influence.

Nikolai Svanidze: And with Syria you’re proposing? Do you charge for something that has not raised the issue of Syria. And with Syria, we would have suggested that power?

Mikhail Sokolov: If Solzhenitsyn is now little or anecdotal Kashin wrote a letter to the leaders of the Russian Federation, perhaps he does not expect that the leaders will take, and will immediately start to turn the life of the North or plant Turchak.

Nikolai Svanidze: First, although I do not believe Kashin anecdotal, because he was nearly killed, remained alive by miracle.

Mikhail Sokolov: Plot with a funny letter.

Nikolai Svanidze: I have it on par with Aleksandrom Isaevichem Solzhenitsynym still would not put.

Mikhail Sokolov: He himself has set.

Nikolai Svanidze: Then let’s recall once Fedor Raskolnikov, who wrote a letter to Stalin, remember Prince Kurbsky, who wrote a letter Ivanu Groznomu.

Mikhail Sokolov: I mean, that your Council – is also a form of letters, in the end, it seems to me, and not a form of solving some minor problems: ah, let us help small businesses.

Nikolai Svanidze: Do you think that help small businesses – is a small problem?

Mikhail Sokolov: Yes, there will be no one to help small businesses in this situation.

Nikolai Svanidze: And you think that will stop bombarding Syria?

Mikhail Sokolov: This is a way of reaching public opinion.

Nikolai Svanidze: Yes, we will among other things have the ability to access the public opinion on an individual basis. When I give an interview or speak on what else the radio will not mention because it is not made in one radioploschadke mention another, when I express my opinion – it is also pressure on the authorities, it is also an impact on public opinion. You do not agree?

Mikhail Sokolov: I want to ask you about the forecast. Much has been said in the Council President: we do that, we’ll see, we’ll fix that, maybe with the NGO law will change the wording of “political activities”, by which the close-profit organizations. You rely on some real solutions on the basis of this conversation?

Nikolai Svanidze: No, I do not count, but I hope.

Mikhail Sokolov: How is it?

Nikolai Svanidze: Hope dies last. Hammer away at one point it is necessary. Lyudmila Mihaylovna Alekseeva, which too few people reproach of cowardice, perhaps, God bless her, she raised the issue very strongly and very specifically on NGOs, requested the president to the polite form, which is only possible in a conversation with the head of state to abolish the “Law foreign agents “as ineffective, going to the detriment of the country.

Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin is very accentuated her remark passed by, he has never responded, but nevertheless, said about the criteria of political activity, which is important in a postscript to the NGO “foreign agents”, will have to think and work. If this promise will be fulfilled and will really help NGOs – and thank goodness. Politics – the art of the possible.

Mikhail Sokolov: Hopefully, with the table of the Kremlin to the Russian society will fly even a tuft of wool.

Sourse, 07/10/2015