While suffering in the camps, I believe the grace of God

Vice-rector of the Ukrainian Catholic University in Lviv, a founding member of the Ukrainian Helsinki Group, Miroslav Marinović told why he was grateful to the Soviet camp, what Putin’s weakness, and why we can not allow a third Maidan – Maidan revenge.

– In your biography there is an interesting fact: in February 1987, while in exile in Kazakhstan, you have refused to petition for clemency. Why?

– In 1987, Gorbachev had to somehow solve the problem of political prisoners. This issue has been a thorn in its relations with the West, and he wanted to get rid of it. But it was necessary to do it nicely, to present everything as “workers’ request.” Therefore, the delegation traveled to the ends of the Union, to persuade people to write letters about his repentance. In this case, the chance to go free were very high.

But when to me was such a delegation, I did not yet know. It looked like this: I came to a group of prosecutors, government officials, the KGB officers, who say: “Write an application, and you immediately released.” I laughed and said: “Listen, I have not written this statement at the beginning of his term, when well understood that if I write, I would be freed That is, I could never sit whole life And now, when I two years of exile left.. you want to buy me in the same sentence – write and you will be released, I will not write anything, all right? “.

And they ask: “Would you please give a written denial?” I was surprised, shrugged his shoulders and say, of course. And he wrote, why can not file a petition for clemency. As it turned out, it was important to get a piece of paper. “Received a letter.” My failure as failures of other dissidents who were perceived as referring to the system.

Later, I was very surprised to learn that at about the same situation was, and the patriarch Joseph Blind – and this despite the fact that he was a prisoner to the other, the Stalinist era. He also asked to state their refusal in writing, which he did. KGB methods do not change.

– Time passes, and the system does not change?

– Rapidly changing external signs, ideology, but the essence remains the lowlands. And selective justice Yanukovych – a selective Soviet justice.

And what it cost to provide medical care in the camps: if you serve the system – you will be treated if you struggle with the system – you may, for example, to open the seal, put there arsenic, and then leave and not to return to the seal closed. And this is only a small bar.

And what about the case where the doctor refused to provide medical assistance to the Russian poet Viktor Nekipelov because in addition to the chest was a cross. He was in a very serious condition, and I gave him a pectoral cross. Victor was grateful to me. A doctor came – and recoiled simply: “No, let him heal you, and I will not be treated.” The name of that “Aesculapius” Pchelnikov. He, I think, would be sitting in the dock during the Nuremberg-2, if there was such a tribunal.

– In one of your speeches you talked about the fact that all crises – economic, political – one source – the human spirit crisis. I have to say is now appropriate that the peak of the crisis on the Ukrainian society is left behind?

– No, the crisis continues to grow. Ukrainian society has made very important things – I’m talking about the Maidan. I highly appreciate the spiritual significance of the Maidan. But in Ukrainian history as it was before: we are much easier to fight for the values ​​than to live in accordance with them.

I remember how impressed Maidan. If you ended up in paradise, where you love everyone and everything – you, and you are convinced of this. You can come to anyone, to say a few words and get an incredible dose of love, care, all the light. On the Independence it was possible, and then they returned to the usual system of coordinates. Many on itself felt, as when “one is a warrior” – about how to steal and steal as demanded bribes and demand, perhaps now even in larger sizes. Evil has become very aggressive. It feels like it is coming to an end.

So we need that there be at least a small group of people, who said: we do not care, we win the election or not, it is important to bring the public a new model of behavior and to implement this model by their actions, deeds and decisions. Only then can we say that the crisis had passed.

– What is missing for the emergence of such a group?

– If you think spiritual category, lacking confidence in each other. And if sociologically-public, we do not lack the solidarity in familiar circumstances. We know how to be united on the Maidan. But under normal circumstances, when you are surrounded by wicked people like to be in solidarity? We see the blackness of each, and people see our blackness.

This is our weakness and a problem: we are ready to live in solidarity, but only with perfect people. And sinners be solidarity we can not, and they therefore do not know how. Vicious circle. We expect a saint, as a result of wallowing in a wicked whirlpool. It is a spiritual problem.

– How to solve it?

– We are all sinners by definition. Lord hopes that realizing it, we can find a way to trust, mutual respect and understanding.

– By the way, of understanding. Commenting on the recent incident with the prohibition of LGBT festival, US ambassador Dzheffri Payett stated that “intolerance in Lviv contradict European future, for which so many Ukrainians have sacrificed.” Why do local authorities and the LGBT community has not been able to meet each other?

– My personal opinion is that what happened in Lviv, was generously paid provocation. The organizers of this event, which, incidentally, were not from the city, deliberately going to the conflict. Looking at those who broke them, too, you can see the elements of the order. Someone needed picture anti-European Lviv to the Dutch referendum, the answer was “no.”

However, I do not want to downplay the issue, saying that in Ukraine and particularly in Lviv, everyone loves the LGBT community. No. It is one thing to fight for their rights, and the other – to show their identity so as to cause a sharp rejection of the religious people.

What purpose was the organizers? Teach tolerance of the community? If they have such a purpose for this would need no gay parades and labor helotic work to convey the idea that we are all different, each with its own identity, respectively, for all of us to live in peace.

And in this particular case, I saw a lot of wickedness, provoking pride.

– Now Ukrainians attention again focused on the struggle for the premiership. In your opinion: Is a change for the better in castling?

– I do not rule out any positive effects. It would be irresponsible to deny a priori any possible positive side castling. People are trying, people want to make a difference – let me be.

What I do not believe – is that the current team of deputies and government officials in Ukraine is ready to make a radical change in the system. I do not believe it, even being on the Maidan, seen in front of the then opposition parties that were in power today. I am grateful for the fact that they kept the Ukraine, saved her from the abyss that opened up in front of her. Honor and praise them.

But Ukraine can change only when clearly realize that this system is incorrect. A current and a government and the presidential team – people who want to save Ukraine from the old system means.

Acting by the old methods, it is possible to temporarily prevent the fall of Ukraine, but radically change the country will not work. The reforms that have been adopted, remind me of the old road patching. Something patched where it became easier to drive. But I can smell the scent of the old Soviet way, on which we are still going. In order to build a new one, you need to act radically: remove the layer completely and give a new foundation. And on it – a new canvas.

– One day, recalling the resilience and courage of Hope Savchenko, you said that “dictators are afraid more than we: it is learned all political prisoners times the resistance movement.” Can we assume that under the pressure of his fear dictator Kremlin’s prisoner release to freedom?

– The fact is that if he was spiritually strong and confident, it would long ago have released it. Strong people are not afraid that they will think about, they make decisions when they dictates of conscience.

Vladimir Putin is weak and a notorious man. It does not find the reason, the reasons for the order to release the Hope, a disaster. I’m not talking about the fact that this system does not like to let go of people. Situation, when the Soviet or kvazisovetskaya, that is the Russian system to let their victims, are unique.

– In one interview you recall that the main purpose of your conclusion at the time, and after him, was not embittered. On or in the whole world?

– This is the interrelated things. Not angry with their abusers, we can reformulate. Do not live thinking about how to take revenge. It is important. It’s one thing when you’re living with the idea of ​​justice, to restore order. Hatred, anger, negative feelings for that you do not need. You light think about how you can correct the situation.

If you think about revenge, hatred is the inevitable companion. And then you will only think about the wrongs that have been in the past. It dooms walk with his head turned in the past, not the future. I do not want it at all. I want to look to the future.

Frankly, while suffering in the camps, I believe the grace of God. Yes, it was necessary to receive calls of destiny. Yes, I stood on the brink of life and death. But it has made me a different person, I have appeared “backbone” changed world.

God never takes away from everything human. Something takes, but then bestows great. A person who is able to see it, never want to take revenge on instruments that God used.

– The war, which continues to the east – one more test. How long will our society to stop dividing people into “us”, “alien”, “Lviv”, “Donetsk”, “Kiev”?

– If we come out of a sense of revenge, then all of this will be delayed for a long time, and who knows, will there ever be peace in Ukraine.

But I can imagine a situation in which it is the regions that today cause us indignation and some malice, in certain circumstances, can become engines of development of Ukraine.

Давайте представим: справедливость восторжествовала — Крым возвращается Украине. Но возвращается он в руки не украинских чиновников, которые отчасти в ответе за сложившуюся ситуацию, а в руки настоящих хозяев этой земли — крымских татар. Я бывал в Крыму и посещал кофейни, дома, принадлежащие крымским татарам. Это же была ляля! Они так любят эту землю, что никогда не смогут ей навредить. Только те, у кого нет кровной привязанности, способны на то, что сейчас делает этническое российское или русскоязычное население. Эту землю, будь она отдана крымским татарам, мы бы не узнали. Они бы превратили её в сад.

Similarly, with the Donetsk team. I remember how during the reign of Yanukovych, I concluded: his countrymen – very dynamic, ambitious, nelenivyh people. The only negative – the wrong value basis. In a short span of time they impose on Ukraine exactly the diabolical, irregular basis.

But we put this dynamism on the right spiritual foundation, they would become the locomotive of Ukraine.

– To do this, we need reforms in education?

– In education, too. But education – this decade. And I say that we need a rebirth now. Today’s young people, in a sense, already formed. I am very much looking forward to from her, because she is not a carrier of stereotypes, the older generation.

But we still do not know how to use it. Where young people now? Where her voice in decision-making in our country? Everything is decided by adult uncle, who pushed the young people even during the Maidan, although it actually began with the youth.

This is the first generation that is not the generation of “homo Sovieticus” it will declare itself decisive action – and only then we will change.

Despite the huge number of enthusiasts during the first Maidan representatives of the new generation have not been able to express themselves. But they did it in the second, they – the second generation of the Maidan.

– Can we say that the second Maidan turned out better than the first?

– They won, so I am convinced that from this point of view, were both successful. Speaking of failure or failure, we have in mind the political consequences. But the Ukrainian Maidan were not political revolutions – it is first of all spiritual phenomena. See the spiritual changes more difficult, political – it is easier. The latter really is not enough.

Maidan The aim was to change not just the political parameters and the mentality of the vast country, of all people, from head to toe.

Some animals change their skin all at once – and Ukraine. It seemed at one point, several efforts trying this old skin to relieve himself.

This is a global change, I can only be compared with the adoption of Christianity in Russia. And living as if the “inside” of transformation, of course, it seems that “all is lost”. I am an optimist who sees the huge potential of the Ukrainian people. I was delighted with the words British expert Sherry: “Ukraine – a country with a weak state and strong civil society in Russia – a country with a strong state and a weak civil society.”.

But we still demand: “We want a strong state, as in Russia!” He will not have this. We have a different nature, we the civil society on the other spiritual foundation is necessary to put. Then the government will have to reckon with the civil society.

– How do you feel, whether the third Maidan?

– I’m afraid to call it the third Maidan, because I always hear: “Third Independence – Independence of revenge.”

I do not want revenge Maidan. I want a spiritual phenomenon. We need one more push to throw off the old skin.

– What books have impressed you so much that you are advised to read them?

– You probably expect that will call the name of a Western intellectual who writes about unlocking the meaning of life. And I find it in the Bible. I do not say, of course, you need only read it. But in this book you can always see something new. Such continuous dialogue with me and the book Mary Valltorta “Bogocholovіk”.

Shevchenko is now urgent as ever. Take now “Kobzarik” open – yes, he yells about what is happening.

Ukraine need solidarity? Read “The Three Musketeers,” Dumas. There is love, friendship, and support – all that is so necessary to us today. None of intellectual research has not made such an impression on me, as this book.

– Whom Ukrainian society should be grateful for a human rights defender and journalist Miroslav Marynovych? Who shaped you as a person?

– First of all, his mother and sister. They were my support, formed the world, given the spiritual basis of life. And yet this fellow dissidents and their relatives. I think of these people as the door closed prison cell, and I was left alone. Already there was no one to help me, not to anyone was to play the role. Nevertheless, I always thought of them, those who remained behind the scenes, and I knew I could not let them blame me for some things.

Many of these people are no longer alive. I remember them with great gratitude and thank God for what they have been in my life.

Interviewed by Anna Sinyaschik

Miroslav Marinović – dissident, human rights activist, journalist, theologian, founder of the Ukrainian Helsinki Group, the organizer of amnisterskogo movement in Ukraine, vice-rector of the Ukrainian Catholic University in Lviv, a member of the initiative group “First of December” and Nestorovskoy group

Sourse, 14/04/2016