Donbass lawlessness
Ukrainian human rights activists talk about the testimonies of victims of illegal detention places in the district of Donetsk and Lugansk regions, which are under the control of illegal armed groups. Human rights activists questioned 162 people emerged from captivity. Among the respondents were both military and civilian. Typically, the local people, who for various reasons fall into place unfreedom.
Conclusion human rights: torture faced each second respondent civilian and 86% military in all these 79 places unfreedom. 16% (and more than 33% of the soldiers) said they had seen how their eyes of people were beaten to death. All this points to the fact that this is not some kind of incidents, excesses, strumming on the ground, and a deliberate policy, it is really a system of clandestine, unofficial places of unfreedom. Power in illegal armed formations using the method of terror against the civilian population in order to maintain control over the territory.
Vitaly Portnikov: I’m in the hands of the research – the evidence of the victims of the places of illegal detention in the territory of the regions of Donetsk and Lugansk regions, which are under the control of “Russian separatist forces,” as they are called United States President Barack Obama. The authors of the study today in our studio: this Alexander Matviychuk , chairman of the Center for Civil Liberties, and Boris Zakharov , head of the advocacy center of the Ukrainian Helsinki Human Rights Union .
Alexander Matviychuk: We interviewed 162 people emerged from captivity. We have information on what are the conditions of detention and of dealing with people who are 79 places of unfreedom. When we say “people in basements”, it is not a metaphor, because most of those 79 seats are not designed even for a short stay. It’s really a basement room, cellars in the office buildings, even a dog cages, aviaries in use of illegal armed groups that hold people.
Among the respondents were both military and civilian. Typically, the local people, who for various reasons fall into place unfreedom. Our conclusion: torture faced each second civil, surveyed, and 86% of the soldiers in all these 79 places unfreedom. 16% (and more than 33% of the soldiers) said they had seen how their eyes of people were beaten to death. All this points to the fact that this is not some kind of incidents, excesses, strumming on the ground, and a deliberate policy, it is really a system of clandestine, unofficial places of unfreedom. This, relatively speaking, the power of the illegal armed formations using the method of terror against the civilian population in order to maintain control over the territory.
Vitaly Portnikov: Boris, there are in this situation, any possible human rights may be, at least from the Russian side?
Boris Zakharov: Those doctors who are allowed to see the hostages are controlled, they do not allow any independent medical examination.
Alexander Matviychuk: We had a block of questions about whether the medical assistance. Prisoners of war were taken sometimes in a serious condition, civilians too, then adjusted to a very serious condition and needed medical care. Male nurses function often performed the same guards. For example, we interviewed Alexander Grishchenko said openly: he was a vet, he improvised means sewing up wounds his fellow inmates.
Vitaly Portnikov: You’re talking about the military, but it is very important to understand what is happening to civilians.
Alexander Matviychuk: The fact that every second civilian man who fell into place bondage tortured – is nothing less than a crime against humanity. We were trying to figure out which categories of persons and for what reasons are subject to such treatment, but our main conclusion: there is no algorithm of actions, which would help to avoid falling victim to such breaking.
Vitaly Portnikov: I saw in this study is evidence of forced press conference for the Russian media.
Boris Zakharov: they were tortured to force to give an interview, which is given once almost immediately after torture.
Alexander Matviychuk: she interrogates me personally was the fourth month of pregnancy. She was beaten with iron rods, although she said she was pregnant. She answered: “You are a Jew, and even pro-Ukrainian views, your child does not have the right to life.” She’s gone from the Ukraine, and I very much hope that it and all is well with her child.
And the second pregnant woman we interviewed, as a result of beatings in the same place had a miscarriage. She said: “We’ll give you a ticket for free, but you must admit that you are a sniper battalion” Tornado “, tell about it to our colleagues, the Russian journalists.” Come, if I’m not mistaken, the TV channel “Russia-1”. We recorded it in the report, found the interview. It shows when she was approached by the so-called journalists, she was asked to sit down so as not to be seen that it is in position.
Vitaly Portnikov: By the way, the old Russian history: during the Chechen war were “Lithuanian snipers women”, which no one has ever seen.
Do not you think that outside of Ukraine in the world (I’m not talking about Russia) little information about what is happening there?
Boris Zakharov: We are trying to inform her. This UN report officially took for distribution through its own channels.
Vitaly Portnikov: With minors there is something similar?
Alexander Matviychuk: Unfortunately, there is. We stayed beyond the study completely separate issue – sexual violence. Men told us about sexual violence against women, who were held with them, and the women – no. Individual cases which we have recorded, again, of stories: Woman gave as a gift to the front, and it’s happened several times, that is, gave it back and returned. It was a minor, her seemingly give 14-15 years.
Vitaly Portnikov: What is the level of transparency in the Donetsk and Lugansk regions?
Boris Zakharov: There’s generally no publicity, all this is transmitted exclusively by word of mouth. There is a full atmosphere of fear. In fact, there is a totalitarian regime in wartime.
Vitaly Portnikov: But there are people who are not afraid to go back there – it is also a fact.
Boris Zakharov: Yes.
Vitaly Portnikov: When the shelling subsided when this whole situation stopped at the freezing point, we saw that many displaced people returning to their homes.
Boris Zakharov: In this way, there is a very large wine Ukraine, which can not provide the conditions for internally displaced persons in the territory under its control.
Alexander Matviychuk: Unfortunately, I was faced with the fact that do not know about what is happening in Kiev, Donetsk, and not even know the journalists and civil society activists. List captured in basement, updated and replenished at the expense of the people who went to visit his family, absolutely not understanding what is happening there. Apparently, they do not read the papers, do not listen to our broadcasts. Moreover, a journalist recently told me in Kiev, she would like to go and work behind the scenes in Donetsk journalist. She asked me how the situation is with the detentions … What do we want from the people in the occupied territory, if here in Kyiv journalists do not know anything?
Boris Zakharov: Prior to October 2015 121 000 internally displaced persons have returned to the occupied territories. DNR says that half a million returned to them. Of course, these figures can not be trusted.
Vitaly Portnikov: Who protects these cellars?
Alexander Matviychuk: In 40% of cases, people claim that those who directed the beatings, was present during the interrogation and organized place of unfreedom, it is the Russian military. We do not undertake to judge, it was this ordinary professional soldiers or mercenaries, but they claim that they were Russian citizens. They have been so presented, called his military rank, or told where they came from, or say, “You, Ukrainian pig, I came to protect you, but are you doing!”. According to statistics, it appears that the rest – it’s local, the citizens of Ukraine. All this points to a chain of accountability to the so-called Luhansk and Donetsk People’s Republic of the Russian Federation.
Vitaly Portnikov: How Ukrainian prison system, the system of detention of persons, who on the other side of the war, more controllable, more than the State? Can we talk about that in Ukrainian prisons can not happen this?
Boris Zakharov: The prison system is not reformed. We present illegal violence in the police and in the prison system. Kharkiv Human Rights Group conducted a study in conjunction with the Kharkov Institute of Sociology. Despite the war, despite the increase in aggression in society, we have compared to the years 2011-12 to halve the number of torture and ill-treatment, unlawful violence to the police. If before about a million people a year were subjected to unlawful violence, and torture – 120 thousand, and now about half a million are exposed to unlawful violence and in some cases 62 000 – torture and ill-treatment.
Alexander Matviychuk: We as a human rights organization demand that the Ukrainian authorities comply with all standards and the reform of this sector, because the gross violations, abuse, unfortunately, occur. Also, there is a problem with violations by Ukrainian forces in unofficial places of unfreedom. Of course, you can not even compare the scale, but we do not measure the human rights as a percentage. Ukrainian state differs from the illegal armed groups that it must investigate each case and bring the perpetrators to justice.
Boris Zakharov: The state is struggling with this problem – perhaps not yet sufficiently effective, but because there is a political will to implement these reforms, to investigate the facts of abuse and torture, sooner or later this problem will be if not completely defeated, then reduced to minimum.
As for the captured parts of the Donetsk and Lugansk regions, there effective control of Russia carries out, it is actually occupied by the Russian Federation territory. We have to communicate all at the diplomatic level.
But most importantly, the Ukrainian side is not enough high quality evidence documenting how the presence of Russian troops, and cases of torture, abuse, war crimes, crimes against humanity, crimes against property. Our organization, submitting complaints to the European Court of Human Rights, Feeds them and against Ukraine and against Russia. Against Russia – for all the chaos that’s going on, on specific articles – is the right to life, freedom from torture, ill-treatment and so on. Against Ukraine – for inactivity, for that Ukraine has enough quality documents and is investigating these crimes. The court’s decision may well be against both countries – for example, the payment of fifty thousand euros from Russia for the fact that it all happened, and five thousand euro from Ukraine for inaction. Such precedents have been in the practice of the European Court.
Alexander Matviychuk: We interviewed people, we collect documents for international justice. But we can not say to a man: but now thanks, goodbye, you helped us a lot. Naturally, we will cooperate with initiatives that provide psychological and medical assistance.
Government policy in this regard is catastrophic. If in respect of servicemen still have some sort of guarantee, the civilian hostages just to themselves. It is necessary to change at least for reasons of humanity, not to mention some rights.
Vitaly Portnikov: When I’m on the program topics it covers me despair. Too many people, our Russian audience is easy to believe you. But many people will never believe in what you are talking about Donbass, because there is a blatant propaganda: “there can not be such, there is defend the Russian people.” Lived Statement usual area is no different from the Bryansk and Kharkov, and suddenly there is such a nightmare …
Alexander Matviychuk: I have a different professional despair: we interview people, but realize how much they still in the field of non-freedom – it’s still going on. About two months ago, we took the famous scientist, religious Igorya Kozlovskogo.
I understand very well what you are saying. When we document when sending alternative reports to the UN Committee, introduced them to the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, we can not stop it. It really frustrates some … That is why we have launched a campaign at the Munich conference fields: we demand the release of all hostages and prisoners of war and civilians. According to official figures from the Ukrainian side of 130 people. They were released a year ago, according to the sixth paragraph of the Minsk agreements .
Vitaly Portnikov: It is clearly stated on the exchange of all for all. By the way, the Russian side, at least as represented by its Special Representative on the Minsk talks Borisa Gryzlova, insists that there should be exchange of all for all. Where are the results?
Alexander Matviychuk: The same Mr. Gryzlov said that the first Ukrainian party must give a total amnesty to people who committed these crimes. We as the human rights organizations a clear position: it can not be an amnesty for serious crimes. Of course, the world is better than war, but there is no peace without justice.
If we look at the leaders of these illegal groups, who all began … As we were told the Russian colleague in April 2014: “Oh, you come to our death squads”. They were led by people who were previously in Abkhazia, Chechnya, Transnistria, where they performed the same. They were not punished were amnestied and now continue it in the Donbas.
So that there is no amnesty for war crimes can not be. To be honest, I’m very strange that I did not hear this from the members of the Norman format , I do not hear such rhetoric from France, from Germany. In my opinion, it is not just the norms of national legislation – is the basic tenet of international humanitarian law. If you give a clear message on the part of not only Ukraine, but also in France, Germany, perhaps in the occupied territories would someone think about now. They also think that sooner or later they will be amnestied.
Boris Zakharov: Amnesty, from the point of view of the law in this case is inapplicable. Amnesty happens when there is a judgment, it’s commutation. In this case we are talking about the withdrawal of charges of grave and especially grave crimes.
Vitaly Portnikov: It is understood that the Minsk agreement, we should grant amnesty to people who have worked all this, based on the Russian side logic.
Boris Zakharov: They want Ukraine changed the hierarchy and sequence of steps. They say, fulfills all its conditions, and then we say of Russia: “What you do not do your own?”. But the logic of the sequence of steps it consists in the fact that the elections in the Donbass, amnesty and other things can only happen if Ukraine will receive effective control over these territories. This means that we are at an impasse, we need a different format other than Minsk. And Minsk must continue.
Vitaly Portnikov: But the people who are in these basements, should be released in any case, regardless of what kind of formula we will discuss with you now.
Alexander Matviychuk: Minsk format just might fulfill it. If we talk about the value of human life, then obviously, it had to be done in the first place, and can be no terms such as “but first you give amnesty, but you first hold elections.” That is why our campaign appeals to France, Germany, Ukraine and Russia: decide the issue now, it is impossible to discuss all other political issues, as long as people are in such circumstances, they can not survive until the next round of negotiations!
Boris Zakharov: There are people who need medical care, many of them have already become chronicles after injuries. They should be exempt immediately!
Vitaly Portnikov: Was POW hits you about it, too, mention in their study – this is an obvious form of torture. In Ukraine, there has never been any parades of prisoners of war, in spite of what was captured by a huge number of people who are fighting on the side of the illegal armed groups in the Donetsk and Lugansk regions. This parade was shown on Russian television. In a huge part of the audience is caused, unfortunately, not the horror and delight.
Alexander Matviychuk: According to the Rome Statute , it is a war crime. We also describe what’s left of this parade personnel. Prisoners of war did not want to leave voluntarily, and in order to get them to go to the parade in front of them very cruelly killed several people (to have witnesses).
Vitaly Portnikov: This is actually what the Nazis did to their parades of its kind.
Boris Zakharov: Yes, it’s exactly the same thing. Unfortunately, Putin is somehow able to defeat the concept of Popper’s an open and a closed society, showed that in a relatively open society, where there are alternative sources of information, you can use the new information and communication technologies so wash people brains because their zombie that you can create on the territory of Russia subtotalitarnogo mode.
Vitaly Portnikov: On the other hand, what can be such a thing, and thus know about them, but do not pay attention – this is just the result of the hybrid war, of which we speak. That is, it is like a war and not a war, and prisoners of war – like and not prisoners of war, and some people who are up in arms came to fight against their own countrymen, and the parade – like and not hits.
Alexander Matviychuk: I tried to investigate the influence of Russian propaganda on the escalation of violence. And this, of course, the question of hybridity of the war, when nothing at all is not clear, the rule of law does not correspond to the norm. But the fact is that very increased level of hatred, is the dehumanization of the country. That is, with these people, you can do so, because “it is not the people – a” dill “, Ukrainians, Germans, this junta, which all oppressed and drinks the blood of Russian babies.”
If we talk about responsibility … We are talking about the so-called “journalists” – I think that should be personal sanctions and proceedings to establish the degree of guilt and punishment of people who incite hatred and war by creating a parallel reality.
Vitaly Portnikov: By the way, in the sanctions of the civilized world are mentioned the names of several so-called Russian “journalists” of the most zealous and frenzied propaganda. I think everyone understands that propagandists blame for the fate of these people is obvious. We often say that the propaganda, but so what? Someone something did not understand, someone made a different conclusion. And here it is really the result of a real propaganda – it is death, torture, humiliation, abuse and the transformation of the opposite side in the “non-humans”.
Boris Zakharov: There is still a problem in international law. In fact, these hybrid wars do not fit into a modern security system in the contemporary legal space. These challenges need adequate answers. In June 2014, I proposed a package of laws on hybrid war, because the Ukrainian authorities could not answer the question: what’s going on? Say “war” and declare martial law – scared, because then Russia may begin a large-scale military campaign. “ATO” – chose this formula, but it is absolutely not appropriate from a legal point of view. Because of this formula, we have a lot of negative consequences at the international level and in international law too.
It would be nice at the time and even now already being late, it is still to take a package of laws, first at the national level, to call a spade a spade, to simulate the situation and describe a departure from the conventions, in accordance with these simulated situations. And then – to collect the international conference in Kiev and declare to the world that you need to make changes and adopt new Convention on the hybrid war, which take into account the current state of affairs.
Alexander Matviychuk: I think the problem is not even the fact that the existing international conventions do not take into account all aspects of a hybrid war, and that no one really wants to solve the problem with this challenge. The international community is trying to freeze the conflict. Amnesty? Well, let it be a total amnesty. Elections? It is clear that they will be controlled by the Russian Federation, but the de facto authorities in Ukraine, we have our own voters can say that it’s all over. Just think, people will die – the whole planet in general is very unsafe, people die …
The biggest problem is that the international community does not want to solve these problems, the hopes that they will somehow dissolve themselves. But the problems do not disappear, they just grow. Let me remind you that Ukraine – this is another point on the globe where these “gray areas” have been created. We live in a highly interconnected world. Europe or other countries, can not be shielded by fences. We have already seen, as it were, by the example of the war in Syria. Problems still find us if they are not addressed.
Sourse, 16/04/2016
