As Ukraine prepare for the Hague Tribunal

Mirsad Tokachi quarter-century documents the crimes committed in Bosnia and Herzegovina during the war 1992 – 1995 year. Bosnian expert is sure that Ukrainians now have to do the same, if you want all the crimes have been proven in international courts – and, above all, in The Hague.

First Mirsad Tokachi worked as head of the State Commission for War Crimes, and then – as the director of the independent “of the Research and Documentation Center”. He started as a journalist on Bosnian television, and now provides journalists with the facts, evidence and lists of victims: during his work on the documentation of war crimes, he wrote four books about the war in the Balkans, one of which he names named all those killed in the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina. “The Bosnian Book of the Dead” contains 99 000 names, each of which can be documented research Mirsad Tokachi and his staff. Tokachi came to Ukraine at the invitation of the Ukrainian Helsinki Human Rights Union to participate in the international roundtable on transitional justice (Transitional Justice),

– Tell us how you started the activities of its “Research and Documentation Center”?

– When in 1992 Bosnia was attacked by Serbia, I headed a state commission to investigate and document war crimes. It was very important for us to begin the process of documentation of crime immediately after the war, and the government has taken the initiative to create such a commission is literally in its first months. Since the beginning it was a temporary committee, operating only in conditions of war, in 2003, I resigned from public office and opened a center for research and documentation of war crimes.

This center is, of course, not only my initiative: it is a public organization uniting people with whom I have worked since the days of the war. The purpose of the center was a continuation of what I did in the state commission, but in more detail.

– In Ukraine, as we know, there is no such committee ever since.

– This is a huge problem. It is very important for any society that runs the crisis, to form organizations that will preserve, document everything that is happening at this moment. If a country is not able to organize this kind of work, does not collect evidence of crimes against its people is absurd to hope for assistance from the international community or to shift these responsibilities to international bodies. If we had at the beginning have not begun to document war crimes, an international tribunal would never have been formed for the former Yugoslavia.

– International Court of Justice addressed to the documents of your Center?

– Yes. I even acted as a witness in some cases. In the history of known many examples of crimes against human rights and freedoms, against humanity, for which the courts do not take place. For example, for the Armenian Genocide No one has been convicted. We also got to bring the case to court. We convinced the international community that the scale of the crimes are so large that they must be viewed in an international tribunal. But, before you had formed an international tribunal in The Hague, the UN formed a commission which visited Bosnia and Herzegovina. In turn, our government commission has demonstrated to the UN Commission documents, certificates, proof of war crimes in Bosnia and Herzegovina – we even organized a meeting of the members of the Commission with the victims. Already on the basis of what he saw with his own eyes,

– What was the role of the media in the coverage of the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

– Luckily, before the war, I worked as a journalist on television, and realized how important the role of the media. From the outset, the commission’s work, we have formed a number of principles that guided this day, already in the center.

Firstly, journalists should not only be local. We are invited to the international media, so they are constantly covered what is happening in our country.

Second, journalists should have access to any information we have documented. It has been my principle, and I insisted on it – and insist today. When it comes to death, there can be no secrets. Journalists must see all the facts, all the witnesses, all of our records. We paid a lot of time not only to provide information about our activities and our research, but they themselves drove the journalists to meet with the victims of the crime scene. Thus, they were able to form their own ideas about what was happening in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Thirdly, we do not engage in propaganda. We simply provide the facts and evidence to the media. The role of the media in a crisis situation the country is huge, and to shift its functions to any other institutions is absolutely impossible. First of all journalists to alert the public about what is happening. And we wanted to and our society, and the world know what is happening in our country. So we worked on our reputation – did not try to hide the truth, did not try to manipulate the facts, did not try to imagine a situation in a favorable for someone to light. And this is what we have allocated to other organizations or government agencies, and so we have come to trust the media.

Finally, the condition of our work has been on the state of our complete independence. None of the politicians do not dictate to us what to do and what conclusions to come – in fact, they did not even have this capability.

– I participated in the war in Bosnia and the army and the Croatian Defense Council and the Army of Republika Srpska. How difficult is it to you, and was kept from journalists in order not to downplay the crime on the part of whose correctness it seems obvious to you, and do not exaggerate the atrocities of the other side?

– When you are describing war crimes, you have to be absolutely impartial. And you must always remember that the war is never black and white. Let me give you a concrete example, but first recall the historical context. In 1991, Bosnia and Herzegovina (BiH) declared its independence and seceded from Yugoslavia, followed by Macedonia, Slovenia and Croatia. A year later, in 1992, Serbia attacked Bosnia and Herzegovina – as Russia invaded Ukraine – under the pretext of protecting the rights of Serbs living in the territory of BiH. Since the war began. And here, in the south of the country Bosnian army organized Celebici camp, where prisoners were held by Serbs, but there were also civilians who supported the Serbian army, including women.

When the Bosnian Army liberated the small village Bradeen, all the prisoners from this village were sent to Celebici – them, which is important, before sending all copied “Red Cross”. In this prison camp were recorded murder, rape, and other crimes against the prisoners – 22 people were killed.

Я проводил расследование этого инцидента, и когда именно этот эпизод войны начали рассматривать в ходе Гаагского трибунала, именно я предоставлял документы суду. В этот период произошло некоторое непонимание между мной и политической верхушкой нашей страны, которая хотела меня убедить в том, что мы вели освободительную войну, и не должны признавать эту трагедию военным преступлением. Я ответил, что согласен с тем, мы вели освободительную войну, – но и освободительная война не оправдывает совершение военных преступлений. Преступление всегда преступление.

We have conducted their research, regardless of age, sex, religion, nationality, membership of a particular army – we just fixed all crimes against human rights and freedoms, war crimes, and all their victims. The only limitation is that we did – it’s borders, which outlined our country.

– led Whether such accusations objectivity of betraying national interests?

– Of course. For example, in 2003 I started a huge project, which was later called “The Bosnian Book of the Dead”, which we would like to write down all the names and stories of victims – both military and civilians. The number of those killed in this war has been the subject of constant speculation for our politicians – they publicly voiced completely unrealistic figures and their values ​​depend on which national policy they spoke. Someone wanted to play down the crimes, respectively, minimized the number of victims. Others would look even more aggrieved party – and exaggerated the number of people killed. But none of them did not provide the names of people, lists of those that could be supported by their figures and estimates.

we conducted an independent study, rewrote the names of all the victims, and it turned out that the truth is usually somewhere in the middle (According to the “Bosnian Book of the Dead” in the war of 1992-1995 on the territory of BiH, 99,000 people were killed) for ten years. And, of course, immediately after the publication I was accused of betraying national interests, that I am a foreign spy who works for another state, and for the money I reduce the number of victims.

I spoke publicly and stated that he agrees with the fact that they may be right, but I’m not. He offered to those who shout about 200 thousands of victims to bring their lists – where the victim would have been named, so that we find them too and identified. We each person has a dossier, who he is, where, how and where he died. I constantly travel around the country, I can prove any of the names on my list – that’s it, that’s his family, that his village, here is his story. And yet still it turns out that I was a spy and a traitor – and you are the heroes?

Cheating – the greatest betrayal of national interests. In my experience, those who are particularly called for the national interest, in fact, hide their own interest for them, in no way associated with the national.

In the end, I came out of this situation as a winner – in every sense, and morally, as now, by far, in BiH there is no politician who would use other data in addition to ours. And even physically – I am after all, and threatened, but I was alive and unharmed.

– The path to victory was very long – almost 25 years.

– Yes. And that’s exactly what I would like to tell the Ukrainians – do not think that this is the work for a year or two. If you want to explain what happened during this period of time, you need to understand and know what preceded it. To explain the Maidan, you need to know what happened in Ukraine during the Orange Revolution. And it, in turn, will have to explain on the basis of what happened after the declaration of independence. And that’s what came to Ukraine at the time of 1991, is due to the device of the totalitarian system of the USSR, the course of the Second World War, famine and so on. Understanding is given only when we see all the historical flow. This means that the work will be long and laborious.

– How does the process of working on such a project? Who worked on it?

– Most of the work takes place at the crime scene. If we sit in the office, we can not do anything. You need to go to the village where there was a murder or rape, to find victims who survived, witnesses, relatives of the victims, to talk to them. If you find some kind of dumping, it is necessary to go there directly, watch the exhumation of the bodies.

– Center itself conducts excavations?

– No. In Bosnia and Herzegovina there is an institute for missing persons, with whom we cooperate. But our center employees will go to the place of burial is present when removing the remains, and monitor the process to the end – that is, to identify the victim. For example, if I was in 1992. I interviewed the relatives of the deceased person, and it is still not found, then I have his name, surname, age, sex, but no body. But after 10-15 years, found an unidentified body, and we are building a link between the body and found the man, who had disappeared. So we actually close the file of another victim.

– How many people are involved in the work of the center?

– Depends on the project. For example, on the “Bosnian Book of the Dead” 200 people worked. But it is important to understand that these were not professionals – they were only twenty people who compile, analyze and process information. The rest – it’s the volunteers from different parts of the country. After all, the local population knows the situation is much better than I, who came from the capital.

– How is funded by your center?

– When I retired from the State Commission for War Crimes, I began to receive funds from international donors. For example, the victims of the census project funded by the Norwegian Foreign Ministry. But there were many other donor funds. Unfortunately, the problem of all post-communist states that the government does not understand the importance of independent civil society organizations, and the importance of civil society as a whole. The State believes that if donors allocate money to us, they are us and run. I do not mind control in the flow of funds – we held the annual independent audit, and the way we spend money and on what, it’s easy to learn and test. However, I strongly object to anyone to interfere in the management of our organization – and although we are fully independent center, Us still sometimes treated as foreign spies. Of course, this is the result of propaganda and stereotyping of any post-totalitarian state. Which, by the way, while retaining control over the dissemination of information – about whether war crimes or anything else – just trying to get back to totalitarianism. If attempts to establish control over civil society and the spread of information is carried out, it means that you do not live in a democracy, as if it is not called.

– It is clear that now, when the war Okocha, work on your projects is relatively safe. And how you have worked during the war itself?

– During the war itself we did not have the opportunity to work across the country. I could not, for example, work in Bradeen, when it was occupied – but I was able to come back as soon as he was released. For the rest, I just went to all the places where he could get there, and no one was reporting on why I’m there. I had a public mandate to work on the whole territory of BiH, and in this document it was stated that all need to work together with me, and to render all assistance. Although, of course, the effect of this document does not apply to the territory controlled by the Serbs. But I was only interested in a victim – and they or their families had enough of my document to tell me everything that happened. It is natural that during the war I mg to work with such a large scale, as it did after the war, but all I could do – I did.

– The results of the study, which is clearly not satisfied with the beginning of any one or the other side, eventually helped unite the country?

– Of course! Our data is finally recognized by all – and it is very important! Incidentally, we went to all the villages in which the study was conducted twice: once when the collected data, in fact conducted a study – and the second time we’ve come to tell the people in the places that we have learned from research. In addition, any citizen of BiH could call me and ask me for any clarifications or to report any data. I was even invited to Serbia, so I helped them to find a particular person. At the same time, anyone in BiH could contact us directly and get the results of our research.

– In electronic form, accessible via the Internet, there is your research?

– While only in my computer, because we fear that the database can be hacked, but anyone can get after treatment in our center by mail. But now we are just working on a new project called “Bosnian war crimes atlas”, and the goal of this project is to do an online-based project database. For this we first need to divide our database: one part of it will be protected, and the second will be available to users.

Why is our base needs to be protected? Our main database contains not only the names of the dead, but also the names of those who killed them; It contains the names of witnesses who talked about it; it contains the personal data of women who have been raped or those who have been tortured – together with the names of the rapists and torturers. In an open basis of these data will not be – only the story of what happened, the names of victims, and the place where the crime was committed. We work with the service “Google MEP”, which will impose our information on the country’s map to any user can find out what happened in any village, town or village. Our database will also allow the search for the victim by name.

In addition, preparing an electronic version of the “Bosnian Book of the Dead”, which will contain much more data than its printed version – because we were simply not able to publish all that we have, on paper. For example, we add to the set of images – photos from burial sites, and so on.

Now it is very important to provide access to this information for us, but even more important to keep all the data that are confidential. As a minimum, because right now there are trials, which dealt with war crimes – and not only international tribunal in The Hague. For example, since 2005 there is a special Court of BiH War Crimes.

– It turns out that you have to wait twenty years to get some real results and to expect justice for the victims of war crimes and our war?

– In no case do not need to wait. You now have to work very hard – if you want justice, and to understand why something happened, what happened to you.
Over the past hundred years in Ukraine, millions of people die due to various reasons. And it’s not even a lifetime of two generations – just a half-generation, if you count the average length of life of seventy years. And all you need is to understand, preserve and document. You need to know everything about yourself, and if you currently do not want to know, then you are bound to be problems in the future. As a minimum, because if you do not write your story, write it for you by someone else, and as it is profitable. And if you are not yourself, then another state or group of people will form for you, not only history, but also the culture of your memories – replacing the reality of your fantasies and myths.

– In one of your interviews, you say, “When justice is late, it loses its meaning.” It turns out that in relation to the victims of war crimes in your country justice almost lost its meaning, because the courts are going so far.

– Yes, justice is delayed, and yes, this justice will never satisfy the victims until the end. But these trials, decisions made in these courts will symbolic significance: every crime and every offender did not escape punishment. And the crime is proven and the perpetrator named during the trial. My experience shows that, for the victims, in fact, does not really matter how many years had served the criminal – is much more important to the victims of the truth, that is, to obtain a full picture of what happened.

For example, Radovan Karadzic was given 40 years on charges of genocide and war crimes. Almost the same as that of convicted criminals in Nuremberg – after the genocide and a crime against humanity, only in relation to a particular ethnic group. And to be honest, it does not matter whether he was given forty years or twenty. For the victims it is more important that he was condemned, and called him a criminal.

And for a country it is important that we have made it an international tribunal in The Hague, and it is a huge success. Without our work would not be a tribunal for the former Yugoslavia, so – there would be no later Tribunal for Rwanda. And there would be an international criminal court. War crimes in BiH have become a reason for their internationalization, and I would like to say that what is happening in Ukraine also has to be taken out of the boundaries of a single state, and become part of an international process. This is a problem not only in Ukraine – but to begin this process should themselves Ukrainians. Neither the Americans nor the Bosnians are not documented crimes committed on Ukrainian soil – Ukrainians have to organize their work themselves, and keep it on three levels. Firstly, it should make the state. Secondly, civil society organizations and the media, in the third – the citizens themselves.

– Was there a request to the truth, even if unpleasant, in Bosnia-Herzegovina during the war – and it happened with the company after the war?

– during the war and after. Although there have always been a situation where someone wanted to hide unpleasant truths. Now your country is very important to send a signal to all its inhabitants that they live in a state of law, and that the courts make decisions based on facts and law, and not on the principle of “truth winners.” If you’re experiencing this trend is very dangerous – in the first place, it threatens the loss of political reputation of the country at the international level, and thus reduces the likelihood of the creation of international courts. In this case, you, specifically, you must prove that Ukraine – not the aggressor. And so you can not discriminate against and humiliate anyone. Donbas residents – citizens of Ukraine, which means that its laws should also apply to them. And when you release the territory of Donbass, you will be considered a crime,

– How is the way life in post-war Bosnia-Herzegovina? Did you get some kind of compensation for victims of war, whether the process of restoring the rights of victims?

– First, we have fully completed the process of repatriation, ie the restoration of the rights of all those who were refugees during the war. They all returned to the property seized and assigned to other people, while they were not at home. In addition, it is continuing to work the system of compensation, which relates to families of victims of war and civilians.

Now we guarantee full freedom of movement throughout the country for any person, and citizens have the right to choose where to live. I recall that now the state is divided into two administrative entities, the Republika Srpska and the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina. To date, we have – the state, recognized by the whole world, with its own independent institutions, with their money, international missions and borders, and all state institutions.

At the same time BiH – a decentralized state. Decentralization – a consequence of the war, which had to take the decision to keep the state in general. Now, in times of peace, I think there will be changes in the processes of the state apparatus, not in the sense of a new centralization, of course. The fact that it is very pronounced ethnic principle in the formation of government. And I hope that now we will be able to gradually return to the traditional principles of the democratic structure of the state, because democracy can not be based on ethnic limitations.

– As far as I remember, you even spoke to ban any political party in the country, based on the ideology of nationalism.

– Да. Партии, чья идеология включает в себя идеи этноцентризма, национализма и сепаратизма. Я считаю, что националистические партии – это практически то же самое, что нацистские партии – все они основаны на принципе исключительных прав только по отношению к одному этносу, и угрожают гражданским правам других. Если мы говорим о демократических обществах, то у нас должен быть один принцип: один человек – один голос. Я могу быть боснийцем, сербом или хорватом – но это не имеет отношения к моим политическим правам. Это не значит, что мои национальность, культуру, традиции не нужно уважать. Но моя этническая идентичность не может быть основой для организации демократического государства. А вам нужно следить, чтобы подобная нашей ситуация не случилась с жителями Донбасса.

– We have with the residents of Donbass no difference either on the national or on religious grounds.

– But there is a language conflict. Which, incidentally, is actively exploited by Russian propaganda. Milosevic also used the language issue – and under the pretext of protecting the Serbian language and the rights of the Serbs invaded Bosnia. If the state needs an excuse for military aggression – it can use any excuse. For example, the protection of the rights of the blue-eyed brown-eyed. And under the guise of protecting the rights of the blue-eyed, to seize the territory of a neighboring state – for example, Crimea.

And this is – is another argument in favor of the fact that the situation in Ukraine should be a problem of the world community. If everything that happens here can get away with Putin, Russia’s aggression against other countries will continue. Georgia already was now Ukraine, may further be anyone – for example, the Baltic States.

Interviewed Gala Sklyarevskaya

Sourse, 01/06/2016